Desire – Matie Fricker – Fat Series – Fat sex-cation. Sex and fat care podcast 11-7-19
Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] so. today we’re doing a guest interview, um, on guests interview days. We get to learn from folks, uh, doing fat, positive or fat, positive adjacent work or fat sex positive.
[00:00:13] Um, as a reminder, we don’t bleep out any cuss words or swear words. We don’t edit for explicit material. So this is your warning that this interview may contain adult material and listener discretion is advised. That’s my warning for you all today. So we’re introducing, we’re talking to Matie and mateys get to introduce herself.
[00:00:33]Matie Fricker: [00:00:33]
[00:00:33] my name is Maddie. Um, I, my pronouns are she, her on a sex educator by trade. I own a feminist sex shop in Albuquerque, New Mexico and self serve toys. And, um, and I am, uh, I am a fat. Cisgendered woman, white, uh, predominantly able bodied with some invisible chronic pain illnesses.
[00:00:55] And, I’m a Dyke. I’m an entrepreneur. Uh, I’m a lover. I’m a [00:01:00] fighter. Um, um, did I say I was white? Yeah. Um, cause that, that is something, you know, I come from settler colonialism. I live in New Mexico, and that’s a very relevant part of my identity. and, uh, and I’m so excited to be here.
[00:01:14] So thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:17] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:17] Thanks for being had.
[00:01:18] Matie Fricker: [00:01:18] Yeah, I was, you know, I’m a desire people or had quite a bit
[00:01:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:23] and we liked that about this place. So this is again, another, I think this is the third one in the series of we’re at desire, we’re at a sex. Vacation, um, you know, in, uh, what is this called?
[00:01:38] Matie Fricker: [00:01:38] A takeover? A takeover by the swings that takes desire. And, um, we’re talking about fat sex. So first we’re going to talk about, um, how you came to have fat identity or fat positive identity.
[00:01:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I, I was raised in Southern California, um, to really what part? [00:02:00] Um, LA, so, yeah. Yep.
[00:02:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:01] I grew up in Carson and then the homesick. Orange County.
[00:02:05] Matie Fricker: [00:02:05] Yup. I was, I was born in Bakersfield, but I was raised like, I want some, I was five. Uh, we moved to Huntington beach, Costa Mesa, Santa Ana, an orange County. Orange County is tilting and changing, thankfully, but it’s a, it’s a very segregated place.
[00:02:21] There’s a lot of class politics. Yeah. And, um, the city adjacent to mine has the highest per capita of plastic surgery of anywhere in the world. Um, Newport beach. Did you know that? I figured that out, you know, growing up, um, and so, and, and it makes sense and I was fine and, and I was, I’ve always been fat.
[00:02:41] I was a fat kid. I come from fat. Family. Fat is something that my body always, always has been. And, and returns to, and, and I, um, in that community, uh, really, really internalized a lot of fat, [00:03:00] hatred and, and a lot of it is for me really, you know, readily related to internalize misogyny, like masogyny and, of of, there is a, there’s a way for women to be successful and to have, and to have the bodies that they’re supposed to have.
[00:03:15] Um, you know, my parents, uh, felt bad about their bodies but hid their bodies. And at the same time, my mom was also like, naked in the house. So there was, yeah. Yeah. My mom, my mom really tried and still had challenges and, and, um,
[00:03:32]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:32] I think that’s, that’s, I feel like that’s kind of what we’re striving for is like, it’s okay to have challenges and like keep, keep showing up, keep being naked.
[00:03:42] Keep. Working on loving your body,
[00:03:45] Matie Fricker: [00:03:45] but I think it was I think that she was in a place of like, potentially like acceptance, um, and I, rather than like radical self love, um, and so, and so, uh, and, and I had a history of [00:04:00] childhood sexual abuse. And a lot of things came up. Everybody had a real hard time.
[00:04:04] Nobody knew how to handle it. Nobody knows how to handle childhood sexual abuse. It’s really common. Like most families have childhood sexual abuse. Most families never talk about it. So there are so many of us who are survivors. And so as an adolescent , when, you know, all of these things, a variety of also things deaths in the family, things, things that were going on happened, it’s a lot.
[00:04:25] There was a lot, there’s a lot, a lot for an 11 year old too. and, and there are a lot of things. And I was seeking control and I was taking control when I couldn’t control my environment. And, um,
[00:04:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:38] and it’s normal,
[00:04:39] Matie Fricker: [00:04:39] totally normal
[00:04:40]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:40] when all of these traumas and things happen, and that’s what kids want to do.
[00:04:43] They need to find some stability. And yet fighting controllers. Completely normal.
[00:04:48]Matie Fricker: [00:04:48] I was doing everything. Everything that I’d been taught how to do when I was 11. Um, my aunt put me on my first diet. Hmm,
[00:04:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:57] I’m so sorry.
[00:04:58]Matie Fricker: [00:04:58] It’s all right. There [00:05:00] was a part of it, you know? Um, and then, and my mom used to say, it’s real simple.
[00:05:06] Stop eating. And so I did, and, and I, I was anorexic all through high school, hated my body, was working through the sexual abuse was working to get to a place of, um, like if I can control everything around me. Then I can be safe and I can make things safe and secure for me. And it really that my boss and and a ****ty spoiler.
[00:05:34] I’m also, everyone treated me better, like it wasn’t like
[00:05:41] when you were dieting?
[00:05:42] Oh yeah. No, I wasn’t dieting. I was starving myself. I was anorexic, anorexia nervosa. Classic. But I was still fat enough that no one noticed. Um,
[00:05:51]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:51] I had as a real, that’s a real problem. I’m really glad it’s starting to come out more, but like fat people.
[00:05:57] Yeah. And have an anorexia and [00:06:00] because they’re fat. Yeah. It’s, it can’t possibly be a conversation. They’re just too fat to have anorexia.
[00:06:06] Matie Fricker: [00:06:06] And I was, I was in color guard was like my, like lifeline. And I had to wear Lycra in front of the school at pep rallies. Like there was a lot of things that, a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure, and um, and my parents were, were not able to care for themselves and or care for us.
[00:06:25] And so everyone was doing their best. That’s by the way, 20 years of therapy. Everyone was doing their best. Yeah. Um, but I had like lines on my nails from when I stopped eating and my doctors said, Oh my God, I’m so glad you’re finally taking care of yourself. You know, to have a 15 year old child
[00:06:41] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:06:41] And that’s terrible.
[00:06:42] It’s terrible and dangerous. Dangerous and unhealthy and unethical. I think we would say now that like don’t encourage people, any people, but certainly young girl to have. Eating disorders.
[00:06:54] Matie Fricker: [00:06:54] Yeah. And at the same time, I really feel like I want to tell people who, [00:07:00] who, maybe are, are in healthcare or, are, um, have a body that is considered normative that like the, like, uh, the like , they are privileged.
[00:07:13] Like, I was more privileged in that space. And it was, it was. A, a smart, logical, unhealthy thing for a child to do because I was trying to be successful and the world told me I was. So
[00:07:27] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:07:27] that’s right. By the size of your body and my how intently you’re dieting, right? There’s a, there’s a good fatty sort of model of like 100% if you’re fat, at least you can die at the very least that you can do for us thin people is diet and that’s terrible.
[00:07:42] Matie Fricker: [00:07:42] It’s **** off. **** off everyone. But it was those really, it was really bad. And it wasn’t until I had my first girlfriend. So I came into queerness. Um, and it was a way it like blew everything open and it was, it was like I had to [00:08:00] reject, you know, because of my childhood sexual abuse.
[00:08:03] Uh, even if it was okay in my family for people to be gay, it was really challenging for everyone around. Around me for me to be gay because we had all this unresolved trauma, and if something had, if, if I was gay then, then somebody had hurt me in a way that made me hate men. And I was like, and I was like, or
[00:08:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:08:26] the narrative of just had the right partner, the right love, the right parents, the right upbringing, you wouldn’t be gay.
[00:08:33] Matie Fricker: [00:08:33] Well, or that it was so hard that, and it was a cousin. Um, it was so hard that under their care a child had hurt me and sexually abused me, and everyone knew about it too. So it was like, people knew about it. so it was like, just cause there, there was medical stuff, so like everyone knew about it, but, but if I was perfect then, then [00:09:00] maybe he hadn’t hurt me that much that much.
[00:09:03] And because I’m a highly empathetic little creature, uh, I was trying to figure out, you know, how I was trying to present like I wasn’t hurting. And so be the right body, be the right girl, be the right kind of straight, and queerness blew that out of the water for me like it
[00:09:20] was, it was literally the first time I allowed myself to experience hunger because the first time a girl touched my hand.
[00:09:30] I felt in my body again. And I think I’ve been living in a disassociated state for most of my life, trying to make things right.
[00:09:39]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:09:39] And that’s very common with, so, especially sexual traumas. We dissociate ourselves. We don’t want to live in this space. Yeah. We’ve been so hard. Yeah.
[00:09:48] Matie Fricker: [00:09:48] Yeah. And so, and, and it gave me like this like feeling of, of I don’t care what anyone else thinks.
[00:09:56] I’m gonna do what’s right for me. And that’s what helped [00:10:00] me eat again. And being with women, uh, helped me like, like I was with all these incredible women. You know, I started out with one and then, you know how it goes.
[00:10:11]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:11] I know they’re just delicious
[00:10:13] Matie Fricker: [00:10:13] and they are, they are in there, but every time, the first time I felt beautiful, I was ****ing like the cool, the big Dyke, you know, on Castro.
[00:10:22] Like I worked at a gay lesbian bookstore and like the cool new Butch Dyke, uh, like. Had sex with me and I, then I went and I, we, you know, we had a great day and then we went to, we went to the place she was at and when she took off her clothes, she apologized.
[00:10:37] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:37] Oh no,
[00:10:38] Matie Fricker: [00:10:38] She apologized. Well, we, and so many of us do, like she apologized for the hair on her nipple.
[00:10:42] She apologize for the, for the way her belly set, she apologize. And I’m like, you’re like the hottest person I know. Like you hate your body. And then I was like in the middle of ****ing her. And I’m like. You hate your body and I am so you’re a stranger. I don’t know you. And it’s so easy for me to be [00:11:00] very sure that you’re wrong, that your body is wrong.
[00:11:03] I am 100% confident that your wrong about hating your body. And, and then I was like, Oh my God, I’m wrong about hating my body wrong. I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But if I can like see every girl on the planet is perfect, what am I doing to myself? And it was like this like. Like radical moment. Of of epiphany while I was ****ing this stranger that like the, like I am, I am at the very least, as beautiful as as I can be, and as, as, as we all are.
[00:11:37] And I could see it in every single person besides me. And I really feel like that if I didn’t have the term at the time, but that was my aha moment around self-compassion. And so.
[00:11:47]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:47] It’s beautiful. It’s totally bringing tears to my eyes.
[00:11:49] Matie Fricker: [00:11:49] Yeah, totally. Oh, cool. Right. And it’s like, it’s like that. So, so for me it’s, it’s all tied together.
[00:11:55] And so then when people are like, well, how did you, how did you get to a body positive [00:12:00] place? it didn’t come from like daisies and sunshine, as you know. And it comes with complexity , and work still, they still have an eating disorder brain. I still have moments. I, I still have, I still have, uh, a critical negative voice in my head that says my body is not the right body.
[00:12:20] And, and for a while, a few years back, I accidentally got on a diet and I called it a health plan.
[00:12:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:12:26] Um, yeah.
[00:12:26] Matie Fricker: [00:12:26] And then I read Virgi Twelvers. You have the right to remain fat. And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve been on a diet. And it was like
[00:12:33]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:12:33] the wellness diet health plan thing as like super insidious.
[00:12:36] Um, I only in the last like maybe six, eight months, finally, it was like, Oh my gosh. The naturapath I was seeing it was like had me on a diet. Like I was like, Oh, I thought I was eating well. But actually what I’m doing is kind of compulsively looking for vegetables for one thing. And I just realized this week when we went to the buffet restaurant
[00:12:56] how buffet restaurants for me are like trigger [00:13:00] my like, am I going to get enough? Am I, can I eat the right things? And also on the other side of like, Oh, there’s everything, I’m, I’m never gonna get enough. And so I should try all of the really delicious food. And so I feel like I walk away where like my body feels full, but like somehow my mind is like, you didn’t eat a real meal.
[00:13:20] And it’s like, it just does like this ****ing head trip on me where I’m like, Buffet like it’s just a landmine mind fieldl of like all of these like foods that I should eat or that I shouldn’t eat or that I want to eat or that I don’t want to eat or that like all of these things. And it’s like, it’s just a buffet, like, yeah, but also none of it is.
[00:13:39] Matie Fricker: [00:13:39] Yeah. I don’t, as soon as I started talking about the surgery, beauty, everyone shares, I have to start getting to like, like I’m like, I’m like, and you may not call it that or, but you know, it’s like this thing where nobody knows. How to eat in a way that they feel good about all the time. And I just want to be like, great, let’s [00:14:00] have that be the starting point.
[00:14:01] Like instead of like, I have this personal problem that’s a deficit and these this thing, really no, like no all in it. And like,
[00:14:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:10] and it’s normal that you listen to Christie Harrison’s food psych podcasts?
[00:14:13] Matie Fricker: [00:14:13] No.
[00:14:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:14] Oh my gosh. So she has, people tell their, their kind of food stories and how they like, where they started and their eating disorders stories and how they are.
[00:14:22] Have like come to be wherever it is. They are actually like, you know, I’m anti diet like nutritionists and all of this stuff, but what I really got is that. Like it’s super normal to have disordered eating sometimes, like the, the story that like you break up with your sweetheart and then you eat a pint of ice cream.
[00:14:40] Is that super normal?
[00:14:41] Matie Fricker: [00:14:41] Yeah
[00:14:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:42] we both are like, you should totally do this. And then we’re like, Oh my God, you’re not allowed to eat ice cream. Right. But like, sometimes eating a lot of food is a totally normal reaction to grief or whatever. But then we heap shame on top of that. And then we’re like, you’re ****ed.
[00:14:55] No matter what you do,
[00:14:57] Matie Fricker: [00:14:57] you’re visibly fat.
[00:14:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:58] Yeah.
[00:14:59] Matie Fricker: [00:14:59] Like, [00:15:00] like I have people in my life who, who will, uh, who are really clear with me cause I’m a safe person to them that like, they’ll be like, Oh my God, I’m going to go do this. But you know, when I go into work, I only take like a tiny little bit of food so that they don’t think I’m a fat person eating like, and they, and, and they confess it and I’m like, yeah, cause you don’t want people to treat you ****ty.
[00:15:20]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:20] right.
[00:15:21]Matie Fricker: [00:15:21] Like you’re all, none of us are in a vacuum too. So, so we’re like, Oh, I feel so guilty about this thing I’m doing. And at the end. Same tie. We’re doing it because we want to be treated while it’s like,
[00:15:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:30] and we deserve to be treated well
[00:15:31] Matie Fricker: [00:15:31] and we deserve to be treated well. That’s the problem.
[00:15:34] That’s the problem.
[00:15:35]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:35] So it’s like a performative, performative eating disorder, like we have to like perform the good fatty role. And then, and
[00:15:43] Matie Fricker: [00:15:43] then, and then on the flip side, it also goes all the way to the other side where I’m, where in the moments where I’m like, well, I need to perform the good activist role.
[00:15:52] And so, and so I’m anti diet culture and I’m anti talking about these things and I know, I know. That these things are toxic. [00:16:00] So then I just spiral out of my head when I’m having these thoughts. So I started just being really open about it and being like, what? What am I doing right now to try to be good to this body?
[00:16:15] Because I love this body and this body deserves nourishment. And I. And I am still learning how to do it, you know, which sometimes, like, like when I, so I did this eat, you know, health restrictive, like, you know, um, pull 30, I did paleo did. And there were a lot of things about my like, health stuff that actually really, really were improved.
[00:16:35] And then, and then cease to, you know, um, and so, but I was like, this is the thing. And then it was like, I would eat like, oatmeal. And be like, this is poison. This is poison. This is poison. The food is not poison. Food is not poison. And so, and so I’m, I am now, I’m now literally like trying to do a different thing and I’m like, I am, I’m going to, I’m going to confess, [00:17:00] like, like I’m going to confess, uh, for the first time in my life, I’m looking at calories.
[00:17:05] And, and, and, but I’m, I’m looking at them because my brain taught me everything is unhealthy.
[00:17:12] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:12] So everything is unhealthy. Do, you could have too much broccoli and it’s a terrible thing.
[00:17:17] Matie Fricker: [00:17:17] But like, but like, or any, well, and this, this like paleo way of looking at it is like, there’s like food is either helping you or hurting you.
[00:17:24] I would literally be like. Anything that I ate that was outside of that, my eating disorder brain would say, you are causing harm to your body. And so right now, right now I’m like, well, I’m going to just have a big container that, that, that is not. And I also, I can cause harm to my body too.
[00:17:43] I’m allowed to. And
[00:17:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:44] as your body, you can do anything you want
[00:17:46] Matie Fricker: [00:17:46] with there. I want to, and, and I like I there, there are things, I have a lot of chronic pain. I have a lot of health stuff in my family and there are things. That I’m trying to take apart and be like, well, what’s real? Cause none of the health stuff [00:18:00] I have doctors tell me is real, you know?
[00:18:01] So I’m trying to figure all of it out and it’s complicated. But the thing about him
[00:18:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:06] then you’re like, well, I can’t trust my doctors and I can’t trust diet culture and I can’t like who can I trust? Where’s the stable ground ? Well,
[00:18:14] Matie Fricker: [00:18:14] and
[00:18:14] for me, like it’s like, okay, if I can be like I’m, you know, and when I say counting calories, I’m like, there’s a lot on my list.
[00:18:21] There’s a lot. And I can go over and it’s ****ing fine because that’s what I want to do. But it’s like there’s this a different pile that I know I’m allowed and I’m making the choice and I’m doing it , it’s like if my body is gonna be, have this rigid awareness all the time, I at least want to make the rules.
[00:18:41] I want to make the rules. And then when those rules stop working for me, I want to make them again. And again and again until we figure it out. So that’s like my truth right now. And I’m fixing the
[00:18:50] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:50] ongoing process.
[00:18:51] Matie Fricker: [00:18:51] It’s an, and it’s like embarrassing to say it out loud to the internet because I feel like a bad fat activist.
[00:18:58] And I’m like, [00:19:00] and, and I think most of us do when we get there, feel like bad fat activists. And I just want to be like, so this is what’s going on with my body right now.
[00:19:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:19:08] Yeah.
[00:19:09] Matie Fricker: [00:19:09] Oh, I feel so vulnerable.
[00:19:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:19:10] Yeah. Well, I think telling the truth is the most important thing. Right? And I think our relationships with our body are really ongoing.
[00:19:17] Right? I’ve spent a lot of time doing work around money and I’ve actually been using my work around money or at, so yeah. But also the thing that I came to her about money is that it’s a practice, right? And so my relationship with my body has to be a practice. And my relationship with food has to be a practice.
[00:19:33] And what about practice is that sometimes it works and it’s great, and you have moments of Nirvana, and then a lot of the time you just gotta get up and do the laundry. Right. And like period out and, and there’s all the feelings. And one of the things that I wish everyone had was my, my, my sweetheart, who’s, who’s over there, but he’s silent again, very silent.
[00:19:55] Um, says to me when I’m like I have so many [00:20:00] feelings. And then he says, yeah. I love your feelings and I just want that for everyone. For someone, like when you’re having like the, I don’t know what to eat and I don’t know the **** is going on and it’s too much, too little, and I’m counting calories and I’m not, and I’m paleo and I’m Blaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, look, it’s just that.
[00:20:14] It’s going to be like, I love your feelings,
[00:20:17] Matie Fricker: [00:20:17] your feelings, your feelings, and Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. Well that, that was the thing is I started realizing, I was like, is, am I doing this in secret? That’s when it becomes, that’s when it becomes really unhealthy. For me. And, and so, so I’m just starting to be like, well, because I just was in a place where literally everything, I was having that moment of like everything is wrong.
[00:20:42] And when everything is wrong, I need to change a plan. Yeah. You know? Ugh.
[00:20:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:20:47] But it’s a trap that is the trap that’s like, it’s a trap.
[00:20:51] Matie Fricker: [00:20:51] And they, and, and everyone profits of on it, but us, you know, so, so I’m trying to figure it out. do right by me [00:21:00] and, and sounds amazing. Okay. But it’s hard.
[00:21:03] I think it’s hard for everybody. So, yeah. So
[00:21:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:06] I don’t think there’s anyone, especially any fat people out there being like, I got this. Like I totally got this covered. I at least I haven’t talked to any. Like if there are. Awesome. Let me know. I’d love to talk to you about it. I loved it.
[00:21:16] Matie Fricker: [00:21:16] Yeah. Let me know.
[00:21:19] That’s right.
[00:21:19] Let me know how you do it. But, um, I have, I do as part of my practice, I consume a lot of media , that tells my brain other things than what I read and see and feel and experience in the world. Like, like the negativity I do experience as a fat person is real and pressing and S and it is.
[00:21:39] Constant and chronic, and wears me down. Yeah.
[00:21:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:42] So are you consuming media. Are you talking about consuming media that’s really working for you?
[00:21:46] Matie Fricker: [00:21:46] Yes.
[00:21:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:47] So a name, anything?
[00:21:48] Matie Fricker: [00:21:48] Yeah, like I just listened to the body is not an apology. Oh yeah. Oh God. Oh God. Oh God. And I really, I really loved it because I was having this like, should I or shouldn’t I, or what should I do?
[00:22:00] [00:22:00] Or I’m, everything’s feeling bad. And it was really like church. It was, if you haven’t
[00:22:05] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:05] yes!,
[00:22:05] Matie Fricker: [00:22:05] if you haven’t read it, if you haven’t. You can listen to it on audio book audience. What I did out of all. Yeah, it was so good. It’s Sonia, Renee Taylor’s. Yeah. The body is not an apology. And it came out last year, a couple of years ago, I think it was 2018.
[00:22:17] I know, cause I, cause I looked at the printer, I was like, how is this, this book? So like, and we’ve been needing it for so long. And how has it affected so many people so quickly? Um, and it’s really i , it’s powerful. And, and I really loved the way that she took down acceptance. It’s, um, and, and just, uh, and, and body confidence, body confidence as a, um, you know, it’s body confidence is a, is a really, it requires a will, and it required you.
[00:22:52], we require body confidence to show up at the moment where we have at the least, and then we feel like failure.
[00:22:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:58] Yeah.
[00:22:59] Matie Fricker: [00:22:59] And I just, [00:23:00] that part just really resonated with me. And I talked with my, I, I just go to work and talk with my friends all the time about everything I’m reading and book blowing my mind.
[00:23:07] And one of the things that we talked about is the way that we love our family or the way that we love people is, is, um, like, like say we’re talking about our dad or something like that. Whether or not, whether or not, or if it’s someone dad’s hard, pick somebody else, but like she has a really good relationship with her dad, but she’s like, you know, whether or not my dad has a good day at work, whether or not he’s performing the way that he is supposed to, whether or not my dad, my dad, you know, is, is even like totally acting.
[00:23:36] Exactly right that day. I’m gonna love him. Right. My love for him is not gonna go away.
[00:23:41]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:23:41] It’s not conditional.
[00:23:42] Matie Fricker: [00:23:42] And that so much of my love for myself has been conditional in these ways of like, did I take good enough care of myself today? Did I, show up to work? Exactly right?
[00:23:52] Did I, did I. Uh, get enough sleep or, you know, the self care checklist of I earned my love that way. [00:24:00] Like, I am so over that right now. I am.
[00:24:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:03] Yeah.
[00:24:04] Matie Fricker: [00:24:04] You know, so radical self love and compassion. I’m also reading emergence and strategy. Um. About the and I’ll send you the name of the author. I’m so sorry.
[00:24:14] I don’t, I don’t have it right now, but it’s called emergent strategy. And she also wrote pleasure activism and, um, and that’s next on the list. But it’s all about like the, like we make things hard and wheeze and that there’s some really powerful, lessons in nature and in and in community about the ways that we’re actually all in are interconnected.
[00:24:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:38] Emergent strategies. Adrian Marie Brown. Yeah. And yeah, I have the act of put the pleasure activism book.
[00:24:45] Matie Fricker: [00:24:45] Yeah, amazing. Yeah. I was like reading this and crying like that’s what I like to do. I like to read things in crack.
[00:24:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:49] I haven’t read this one yet, so
[00:24:51] Matie Fricker: [00:24:51] you’ll love it. You’ll love it. So, so I do that and then I follow a lot of fat positive.
[00:24:59] [00:25:00] hashtags on Instagram. You know, one of my favorite ones is hashtag take up space.
[00:25:04] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:04] Oh, I haven’t been watching.
[00:25:06] Matie Fricker: [00:25:06] It’s so good. It’s so good. And this morning there was like, if somebody pulled dancing with a giant unicorn, like a blowup unicorn of men between their legs, and someone said, you know, you take up too much space.
[00:25:17] And they’re like, Oh yeah,
[00:25:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:19] that’s right. That’s right. Oh, thank you.
[00:25:21] Matie Fricker: [00:25:21] And I think the act of taking up spaces revolutionary.
[00:25:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:23] Yeah.
[00:25:24] Matie Fricker: [00:25:24] You know, and it’s also one that I, that I. Uh, constantly fear that my body and my voice and my energy is taking up too much space. And I’ve been told that a lot, so I hope I’m doing okay today.
[00:25:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:38] You’re done. You’re taking up the perfect amount of space. It’s also, you know, especially when we’ve been told we take up too much space, it’s important to re like reset, recenter ourselves and our own, like, this is my space. I get to tech, take up space. Um, and you know, there are ways that people can take up too much space, but like.
[00:25:56] You know, you get to take up space, right. And you get to take up as much [00:26:00] space as your body takes up, and you get to take up as much space as you know.
[00:26:03] Matie Fricker: [00:26:03] Yeah. Yeah. And there are certain spaces where I’m very clear about like trying to make my body as small as possible. And sometimes these days I’m, you know, I’m a middle aged cis-gendered white lady.
[00:26:13] Like the world’s a pretty safe place for me. So sometimes I actively push the amount of space on that I’m supposed to be taking. Like I let men hit me, like not hit, like if I’m walking down the street, I don’t move. I don’t back down. Like, um, I yelled at, I yelled at Aman, man in Starbucks the other day.
[00:26:31] because there was, there was a woman coming through with a cane and I stepped aside and then he just butted right in and I, and I was like, excuse me. it didn’t make that space for you. I made space for the woman with a cane you almost knocked over. And he was like, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry.”
[00:26:45], I love, I love, at this point, I want like sometimes engaging with people about the space they’re taking up and, and being really aware that like, I’m allowed to take some. And also, and also who. Who in this room has less space than me and how can I make [00:27:00] more room for them?
[00:27:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:01] Yeah, that’s fantastic.
[00:27:03] So I want to shift over to talking about second,
[00:27:05] Matie Fricker: [00:27:05] know how this happened because I will do an I for 15 minutes. I wear a desire and I’m like, I’m so sorry I have, I have a sex on the beach day kind of gang bang. I have to get to four.
[00:27:16] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:16] It’s a lot. It’s a lot. We tried to hurry up and talk about that, sex, cause
[00:27:20] Matie Fricker: [00:27:20] he know can, but this is like so classically me like.
[00:27:23] Upstairs. People were like, Oh, what happened with you last night in the hot tub? And I was like, Oh my God. I just had the best conversation with Bradford about, and
[00:27:31] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:31] Bradford’s very good
[00:27:32] Matie Fricker: [00:27:32] about our grandmas. So like, we’re just talking about our grandmas and, and religious tolerance and like, you know, but it was like so sweet and like, people are like, Ooh, what’d you do?
[00:27:42] And I’m like, Oh my God, I had the best conversation about our grandma’s in the hottub. So if you’re like, and you’re like, Oh my God, this sex vacations sounds really intense also know that there’s a lot of, a lot of just heart to heart too.
[00:27:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:56] Yeah. A lot of sweetness.
[00:27:58] Um, intimacy is [00:28:00] intimacy. And like, I think the, you know, there’s a lot of us that we really liked sex.
[00:28:04] And for me, sex is on a scale of intimacy and sex is great and I’m, you know, can do sex by itself or with, you know, all these different ways, but like, it’s not the only way for, at least for me, for us to be intimate. There’s lots and lots and lots of ways to do that.
[00:28:18] Matie Fricker: [00:28:18] And society. Society doesn’t value almost anything except for romantic pairings that lead to children like, like so.
[00:28:26] So I think it’s revolutionary to really value and cherish platonic love. Like my, my, the people I am absolutely closest to in the world. I call them my soul sisters. Uh, they live in different States. They’re my people. My plan is to grow old with them. If I get too And, and they, they’re, they’re my protonic intimacy, like loves, like, like forever and ever.
[00:28:49] when people, uh, hear, hear that, that sometimes they go, “Oh”, like, like as if I’m missing out and I’m like, Ooh, you know, who’s reliable? Uh, the women in my life who I’m not [00:29:00] ****ing like, you know,
[00:29:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:01] I’ve had my back for a really long time and who I have known for 25 years, like they still have my back through all of the people that I have sex with and all the relationships and all the changes and all that.
[00:29:09] Like. And of course, like they have my back, and of course, like, hi, of course I want them around and old with them. Like, you know, it’s like they’re the ones who I know, I already know, have my back.
[00:29:22] Matie Fricker: [00:29:22] Yeah.
[00:29:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:22] Right.
[00:29:23] Matie Fricker: [00:29:23] And then, and that, um, that it’s easy to love unconditionally. Yeah. And, and that, um, and that model for me, that I know that I can.
[00:29:33] You know, but I, but remember I have like romantic love of nesting and things like that. I want to have conditions. I feel just fine with that, but it’s good to know I can, you know? And that maybe. In the right situation. I can nest in an unconditional way, but I bet at this point, having some conditions works real well for me with park
[00:29:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:53] conditions.
[00:29:53] Boundaries, like, yeah,
[00:29:55] I mean it’s important.
[00:29:56] Matie Fricker: [00:29:56] Um, so yeah, intimacy, sex. Here we go.
[00:29:59]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:59] Yeah. Let’s talk about [00:30:00] sex.
[00:30:00] Matie Fricker: [00:30:00] Let’s talk about sex. What about it? I love sex using, I love sex. So one question is, how did you become sex positive?
[00:30:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:07] I assume you’re sex positive cause you’re here.
[00:30:09]Matie Fricker: [00:30:09] Yeah, and I own a feminist sex shop.
[00:30:11] And I think it is not an accident that almost every feminist sex shop is owned by a queer person. and most are most like a bar, like pretty significant portion are owned by queer women. and that I don’t think that’s an accident. I think that that people who, um, have had, as I had the moment of my desire and my body and my needs.
[00:30:38] Are valid and important, and I’m willing to do what it takes to, to get there. And I, you know, I lost family. I was gay, banished, like some **** went down, you know, so, uh, listening to that hunger in my body and saying, you get to get fed was important and changed every thing.
[00:30:55]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:55] I love how the food and sex thing just comes right together. [00:31:00] The hungers of the body include food and they include sex,
[00:31:03] and there’s a, like, especially room as associating, and we’ve been not able to live in our bodies like these hungers are, they’re real and they can be. So. Big, and then you nurse them and you feed yourself.
[00:31:15] And there’s like a, um, I dunno, there’s a transformation that happens when you’re, when, for me, at least, when I’m finally like, Oh, I can have it, I can nourish myself. I actually am valid. I am real. I exist. I am, I am. And I get to have my desires right.
[00:31:33] Matie Fricker: [00:31:33] And it gave me presence in my body and presence in my body gave me an awareness that my body has needs.
[00:31:41] And I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up prioritizing my needs. I wasn’t, that was not welcome. Or at the very least, it wasn’t prioritized. Everyone was doing their best, um, everyone’s doing their best, doing their best, and that’s all we can ever. And they still are terrible. Everyone is always doing their best.
[00:31:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:58] And the thing that I’ve [00:32:00] come to is everyone is always doing their best and it’s not always good enough.
[00:32:03] Matie Fricker: [00:32:03] Yeah. Right. Well, it doesn’t mean I want to **** everybody. That’s what I learned. So in terms of fat, sex, I think, I think that there’s, a few different kinds of fat sex I’ve had and some of them have, and some of them have been, people are so invested in the ways that I make them feel, and so, and so they, they, uh, are hot for me despite my body.
[00:32:26] Um, and that, and that, you know, I’m just, I’m just so, I’ve such a great personality. I’m so, I, you know, I, I make them feel, yeah, I don’t ****. like that anymore, but, but, but when I was young and had very low self esteem and was just looking, looking for connection, um, that was a, that was a recurring thing.
[00:32:48] And, that, my body became something that was navigated around, it became something that wasn’t, um,
[00:32:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:32:56] not center, not seen,
[00:32:58] Matie Fricker: [00:32:58] not centered on seen. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:32:59] I’ve had, I used to have these connections where it was like, I’ve never had sex with a fat girl before.
[00:33:04] And like, but you’re so great. You’re so funny. You’re so kind. You’re so. I’m so, I’m willing to try it.
[00:33:10] Matie Fricker: [00:33:10] I’m willing to try it. Yeah. Great. Cool. I’m willing to not let you, uh, but, but, but, but I’ve done that. I’ve done that a lot. Yeah. And I, and I, and so, and so, and because my body is not normative and because people have a, uh, although my body’s so , normal.
[00:33:31] Oh, my bad.
[00:33:32] It’s not the normative body that P the, the,
[00:33:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:35] the culturally centered body.
[00:33:36] Matie Fricker: [00:33:36] Yeah. Their culturally centered body. Because I’m like, my body is normal. Your body is normal. All of our bodies are normal. But the, the body that is seen as, which I think I’m like, so my brain is from, from, uh, the body’s not an apology.
[00:33:48] Like, you know, um, but because that body is not that, um, I find, I find that I have a lot of insecurity about whether or not someone is [00:34:00] actually hot for my body.
[00:34:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:01] Yeah.
[00:34:02] Matie Fricker: [00:34:02] And then, um, then I am always suspect of it. Always. Yeah. And so, then because I’m so suspect of it, I don’t want to ask.
[00:34:14] “Do you like my body?” Because I feel like the answer will be yes, but it might not be true. And I’ve been in longterm relationships and felt that, um, you know,
[00:34:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:23] read the difference. Like sometimes you can read it on people where they’re like, yes, of course, but you can see it in their eyes or in their face or in their demeanor that like.
[00:34:32] “By. Yes, of course.” They mean I’m supposed to right, but it’s not true for them. And then there it’s complicated. And then do you call it out? Like, and I don’t mean like call it culture, but do you just say, it doesn’t look like
[00:34:44] Matie Fricker: [00:34:44] feel like that?
[00:34:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:45] Yeah. And then it’s complicated and because your body’s already marginalized, like how do you, you know, it’s like, how do you navigate the, like.
[00:34:53] What I actually want is someone to show up who just really wants my body
[00:34:56]Matie Fricker: [00:34:56] just really ****ing wants my body. But also, and not in a [00:35:00] creepy fetishizing way. Cause that’s the other thing that happens. But then my body becomes object and my body becomes, so that’s a like body as object body, as fetish body as like, I wanna feel your rolls.
[00:35:10] I want to S you know, I wanna I want, I. I am objectifying your body and not integrating your whole self. And that feels gross too. Um,
[00:35:21] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:21] because it is, if it’s not already a boundary violation. It is the kind of a homework from me or this signal of, of violation that like they see my body but not me.
[00:35:32] So when it comes down to sex or it comes down to what I want, they’re just not going to see me and not gonna listen to me. Not going to stop, not gonna, you know, like, so I don’t get to show up. Even if they think, you know, my belly is great or whatever, they still have to see all of me. And I think there’s a, like I’ve definitely.
[00:35:50] I have this the story, I don’t think I’ve told this on the podcast. I’m going to do an aside, which is, I was at a sex party. It’s probably been like 10 or more years ago, and I had sex with this [00:36:00] dude and, um, and it was, I think there was a threesome. It was me and him and another woman, and then a sex party a couple of months later, same dude, his partner comes up to me and he’s like, Oh, he totally wants to have sex with me was actually the like.
[00:36:13] I was like, He did already, but he doesn’t remember because he wasn’t he, he doesn’t remember me. He just remembers ****ing a fat body and getting off on that. And I was like, that is super gross. And then, and then he continued to come up to me or you know, his partner could lie and like to her, I was like, I’m don’t do that anymore.
[00:36:32] And to him, I was like, at some point I just finally was able to say to him, you did **** me and you don’t remember. I’m not doing it again. And then he finally like, got that. But I felt like I had to be really like people.
[00:36:46] Matie Fricker: [00:36:46] Most people can’t. So have you been like, it’s ****ing great that you could because, because that’s really.
[00:36:53] It you, your voice is powerful and whether you say it out loud or not, it’s there. And [00:37:00] it’s really cool when you can use your voice in those moments and like that, that is bad ass. And I’m so proud of you.
[00:37:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:06] Thank you.
[00:37:07] Matie Fricker: [00:37:07] Um, and like, and T. Like, cause what are you coming up against you to all of those things.
[00:37:13] And most people would, would as a normal trauma response would shut down and be quiet and freeze and be able to speak in that moment like, like it is a super common trauma response to freeze. And so, and so even like. Like in a, in that situation, it would be really common to just do it again and then be trapped in your head about all of it, you know?
[00:37:37] And so like, I’m really like, trauma responses are so cool and I think about them all the time and, and I’m like, that is bad ass that you fought. because not everyone has that accessible to them. You know? And also like so ****ty that you had to, you shouldn’t have to fight to not be treated like a ****ing object by somebody who already ****ed you.
[00:37:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:57] Right.
[00:37:57] Matie Fricker: [00:37:57] Like I, it sounds like it wasn’t great [00:38:00] sex either.
[00:38:00]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:00] That’s what I was finding. The way that I was able to finally voice it, cause it took several, like coming up to you was to be like the sex wasn’t that good. Like you don’t remember because the sex wasn’t any good because you don’t actually like me.
[00:38:14] Yeah. And that was the, like my anger was, was able to over finally overcome the, like, what the **** bumped up?
[00:38:21] What the **** yeah, it was, I just, I think mean people have bad sex. Um, that’s a, that’s one of my core beliefs. I really think that people who are mean people are means that others are frequently mean people.
[00:38:34] Matie Fricker: [00:38:34] People have bad sex because these mean people are selfish. They, they center themselves in, in any given situation. And when you do that, you are unable to be connected, which is the whole reason we’re here. And.
[00:38:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:49] Not just that they sit her themselves cause it’s important to, for us to center ourselves in our own space, but they center themselves over other people, over other people’s needs, over other people’s desires over seeing and connecting with [00:39:00] other people.
[00:39:01] Yeah. It’s creates a power, dynamic entitlement over, I
[00:39:05] Matie Fricker: [00:39:05] mean, people have bad sex. Um, but, uh, but then so then, so then the kind of sex I like to have is usually really connected sex, uh, that, and it could be like, hi, I just met you, but we. We really , like weren’t in it. And we’re here and we’re present.
[00:39:24] Um, but even in those situations, because there’s so much fat, negativity, particularly if somebody is not fat, uh, I feel, or especially with people who are like longterm partners, I will , give them permission to call me fat. To objectify my body to tell me I want somebody to tell me that I ****ing love my fat ***** and they love my rolls.
[00:39:47] And they love how they love how heavy I am. They love how things feel. They love, they want to, they want to **** me until I jiggle. Right? Like,
[00:39:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:54] Ooh, I
[00:39:54] like that,
[00:39:55] I want that.
[00:39:57] Matie Fricker: [00:39:57] And I date feminists who [00:40:00] won’t tell a woman that. And so, and so. I feel like there’s like this disconnect for people around like, it’s like, it’s like I want, you know, with a book, like when someone you love is kinky, I want, so when someone you **** is fact like a book for that because, because in the absence of positive re positive reinforcement and positive praise and positive connections with the abundance of negativity we hear every day.
[00:40:28] It’s no wonder that many of us, myself included, have self esteem. That’s stuff first like, and I want to like, there’s a difference. I chose that word intentionally, not low self esteem because we also are nuanced people and I have incredibly high self esteem and I have self esteem that’s suffers.
[00:40:50] And so when a lover, when a lover of. Like, ****s my pain away, you know, and, [00:41:00] and tells me that and sees me and sees my fat. And cause I’ve had people who are like **** and *****, **** and *****, **** and *****, right?
[00:41:09] Like your ass as, as, and I’m like, could you just ****ing talk about like, like where most of my mass lives, which is directly in my belly, like my belly is where is the predominant feature of my body. And so if you **** me and only talk about my ***s, we have a problem.
[00:41:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:41:28] Yeah.
[00:41:29] Matie Fricker: [00:41:29] So that’s, that’s, you know, that’s some of my, and so those, I think, I mean, I might have more Clark, you know, classifications later, but like those are the ones I really liked.
[00:41:38] But I generally, I have to give permission for someone and I have to explicitly ask for it. And it bothers me. Because I’d like maybe my future dream lover, if you’re out there hot Butch polyamorous, a like fantasy, maybe you’re like a, you’re like a geologists or, you know, cause I just want to learn [00:42:00] about rocks or something.
[00:42:02] Um, maybe maybe study the paleontologist studies on the, I don’t ****ing care though. Hot Butch polyamory. Good enough. Ideally located in the Southwest. only
[00:42:11] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:11] Albuquerque. If you’re out there,
[00:42:12] Matie Fricker: [00:42:12] Albuquerque, if you’re out there, please. Uh, but my ideal, like my dream would be somebody who said, who said, you know what?
[00:42:21] Like, I want to check in about this because I don’t want to like ever make you feel uncomfortable. And I I’m ****ing you because I like you and because I really like your body and I want to just ****ing tell you everything I think. And I just want to make sure that makes you feel comfortable.
[00:42:39] That would be my dream.
[00:42:40] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:40] Yes.
[00:42:41] Matie Fricker: [00:42:41] That doesn’t happen.
[00:42:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:42] Yes, yes.
[00:42:43] Matie Fricker: [00:42:43] Like that and that. And that hasn’t has it happened for you? Like,
[00:42:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:48] so I get some of that with this creature over here. So one of the things he does, he’s like, Oh, I love your belly, rub my belly, and then your legs when out, you’re like, ah, Oh, it’s the best thing.
[00:42:59] Matie Fricker: [00:42:59] Yeah.
[00:43:00]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:00] [00:43:00] And there’s because there’s a line between, I love your body and all I could see as your body.
[00:43:06] Matie Fricker: [00:43:06] Right, right.
[00:43:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:07] And so it’s like. Yes, I want you to love my personality. Yes, yes, yes. But like, I want you to love my body and we are going to love my thighs and I want you to love like where my thighs meet my ***** and I want you to love my belly, my big giant belly button.
[00:43:20] And I want you to love my, my like, underarm fat. And like, yeah, and just like all the, all the things like, I feel like this is a thing that thin women get. Like men lick them all over, all over everything and they’re like, Oh, I love your, your knee pit, right? Like, whatever that is.
[00:43:36] Matie Fricker: [00:43:36] Yeah.
[00:43:36] that knee pit
[00:43:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:36] And like the back of my, like the button back of my thighs off, like, like just having that stroked in, smacked in, like, you know, and it’s like,
[00:43:46] Matie Fricker: [00:43:46] eat your ass too.
[00:43:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:47] That’s right.
[00:43:48] Matie Fricker: [00:43:48] Eat your ass like ****ing breakfast.
[00:43:51]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:51] That’s right.
[00:43:52] Matie Fricker: [00:43:52] That’s all of it. I just want that. But like,
[00:43:57] I’m with you. Eat my [00:44:00] ass and tell me you love it.
[00:44:04] That’s, that’s, that’s the romance these days. 2020 ass eating.
[00:44:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:08] And I was just talking to someone here who has a fat partner who, you know, my size ish. Um, and I’ve mentioned this before, my about, size 32. So I’m like on the edge of super Superfad and, and who was, I was like. I can’t remember how we got there, but I, I was like, well, why don’t you just talk about her fat body?
[00:44:27] Cause like, Oh, I can never call her fat. And I was like, my mother ****er, she is a fat and there’s nothing wrong with it. He’s like, I feel like I would be degrading her. And it’s like, no, if you don’t acknowledge that she’s fat, maybe she doesn’t want that language. You should talk to her about that.
[00:44:41] But like, you know, then you’re pretending that things are different than they are. You know, and I know that
[00:44:48] Matie Fricker: [00:44:48] she knows she’s fat,
[00:44:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:49] right? It’s not, it’s not a mystery. It’s not like we walk around pretending like, Oh, and somebody finds like, Oh, you’re fat. And we’re like, Oh, I’m so surprised.
[00:44:55] Like that’s not a
[00:44:58] Matie Fricker: [00:44:58] thing.
[00:45:00] [00:45:00] The world treats her differently every day because of it.
[00:45:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:03] Yeah.
[00:45:03] Matie Fricker: [00:45:03] And so it, I feel like it being like, like, Oh no, you’re not, that is being like the is the equivalent of somebody saying, I don’t see color. Like, like, Oh, it’s so gross.
[00:45:14] Yeah. Like, no, we have differences between us and, and where things were. And those things matter because we live in a world that treats us all differently.
[00:45:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:26] That’s right. Like if they treated as everyone was treated the same, it would be a different conversation. I don’t even know what that would look like, but that is not true and we need to stop pretending that.
[00:45:35] That’s true.
[00:45:36] Matie Fricker: [00:45:36] One of the thing I really love with, with both platonic intimacy people who are just like the people who are good in my life and and sweet partners like, or something that really just helps me feel loved. Um, and, and it was not fed sex. It’s so related to fat care and nurturing and bodies.
[00:45:57] Cause I feel like there’s this other thing where it’s like [00:46:00] fat, sex and then, and then fat how much you know, um, is when someone, uh, cares for and nurtures my body and recognizes the needs of my body. So like, I work retail and I work like 12 hour plus days. And I’m like, if I’m with somebody and they think about it and they’re like, you know what, let me rub your feet. Like, like I’m gushing like my *****’s gushing or, um, or I feel cared for and feeling cared for. It’s something that like, I feel like I have, I have definitely like absorbed the message that like, my job is to care for others.
[00:46:40] And so when someone cares for me, it feels. Um, that’s how I know,
[00:46:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:46] feels deep
[00:46:47] Matie Fricker: [00:46:47] and it knows, and it helps me know I can trust them when they also want to eat my ass. That it’s not about some ****ed up. I want to, I put my tongue in that girl’s [00:47:00] ass and this is how far it took me to get into her ass, or blah, blah.
[00:47:03] Like, like it then becomes like, I’m doing this thing because I like caring for you and I want to care for you and caring for you is good. And I feel like that, that’s like a piece that I think was really missing. And when I feel the difference, it frequently is a lack of care.
[00:47:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:47:22] Yeah.
[00:47:23] Matie Fricker: [00:47:23] Yeah. So you touched, I’m like, Oh, I’m like, underwear time. Yeah. So what, what, how were you help me to, to knock it out in the next couple minutes.
[00:47:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:47:35] Maybe tell us one or two hot, sexy stories about what you’ve done here and what you loved about being here.
[00:47:40] Matie Fricker: [00:47:40] So, so one major thing I did here. So I’m here as a sex educator.
[00:47:44] So a lot of people are here on a sex education. Um, I’m, I’m here for, I’m here for work. so Tristan Taormino, is a dear friend and mentor and somebody who, uh, really does an incredible job of, of pulling [00:48:00] people up. So where she’s at, um, and, and Tristin Taormino , uh, who we’ve talked about this the other day, what’s her podcast name?
[00:48:07] Sex out loud, sex out loud. Go give it a listen. And so good. And we did a live podcast here, , yesterday, but so she is, um, she’s a sex educator respect her for years. She’s become a friend, um, a dear friend. And so she invited me to be here with her and to teach. I’d above G-spot with the knowledge accusation, and
[00:48:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:28] I hard that class was amazing by all accounts.
[00:48:31] Matie Fricker: [00:48:31] So glad to hear that because, and I, and my work, I don’t get to do demos and I don’t get to use my body, my and I, I would, I would not choose to have my home community because I liked to have space between my sexuality and the work of the people who are coming in, like it’s about them and it’s about their work.
[00:48:49] And I’m just there to help. And in this case, um, I got to, I got to teach with Tristan, which was like a lifelong dream. and we were, we were very [00:49:00] sassy and funny together and it was great. Um, and then, and then at the end we broke up into smaller groups and people. Who were interested or able to practice what they learned.
[00:49:12] So a lot of couples, touch each other in each other’s bodies. I’m using some toys that abroad and then, uh, and then a lot of, and then Tristan did a demo, um, on someone here. I mean,
[00:49:24]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:49:24] Tanya, I was yesterday, I hear about a show can name names because has already been talked about and we have permission for that.
[00:49:31] Matie Fricker: [00:49:31] And I, I went and in a corner and did “Show and Tell *****.” ***** party!!!! Um, and was like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna talk about anatomy and how the body works and I’m going to show you. And so I’m going to show you what arousal does and I’m going to show you what happens. And in that class,
[00:49:48] I wore intentionally wore, um, a tiny skirt and a and, and like a halter top, um, but full belly out, full belly, private, like right in the middle of my body. Sitting [00:50:00] down with full belly, you know? Um, and, and, and, and then I just brought people over the corner and I was like, very much like, I hope people are going to have sex with each other, that they’re going to watch her.
[00:50:10] And like, like if I’m jerking off in the corner by myself, that’ll be fine. You know, like, and, and then I had a huge group of people come and, and I was surrounded by folks and just like, took off my skirt, propped myself up. People got up, helped me out, God’s Howells so that I can lean back and.
[00:50:27] And I, and I, and I showed my Bonnie and, and it was great because I didn’t, I didn’t give any apology for my body. I was like, all bodies are good bodies deserving of love. Exactly as they are. And I believe that in that moment. And that my body was in that too.
[00:50:44] And so I took off my panties, took off my skirt, uh, spread my legs open, prop them up on an ottoman and people held up their flash Pope telephones like, like it was, I felt like a rock star. But you know, people held up their, their flashlights on their [00:51:00] phones and everybody looked at my body and I, and I then talked about arousal until this is what my body looks like when it’s not aroused and it’s different and you have to add arousal.
[00:51:12] Months do that. And I talked through, as I got turned on, I showed the difference and I showed her what happened. I showed how my labia changes and I how how bodies change. And then I, and I showed how my G-spot gets bigger and it’s like, see the difference and this is what’s happening. And then, and then I used a vibrator and I, and I said, I’m, and I said, and I’m probably not gonna come.
[00:51:31] Everyone should know that I’m not an exhibitionist. I’m not somebody who feels more comfortable and relaxed when people watch, I actually feel more shy. And concerned and self-aware.
[00:51:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:42] Um, that’s me. Yeah. Yeah. Nervous.
[00:51:45] Matie Fricker: [00:51:45] And I’m allowed to, like, there’s also like, there’s this thing, there’s this thing that happens sometimes in these spaces where people are like, everybody’s just fit out.
[00:51:53] I’m like, I don’t feel that way. And that’s okay. You know? Um, I’m allowed to both be self aware and try and shut [00:52:00] down. And I learned, use my ***** at a class and, and,
[00:52:04] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:52:04] yeah.
[00:52:05] Matie Fricker: [00:52:05] And then, and then I came and I did. And I was like, I want to give myself permission not to squirt, not to come, not to, not to have that in there.
[00:52:14] And there was room for that. And then it happened and I squirted in front of a room full of people. And then I also felt the experience of feeling like. Shy and nervous. And I asked for reassurance and you know, I said, can you tell me that was good? And then I explained like physiologically, like when we have this sort of big release, it’s really common to have attachment things.
[00:52:35] So I’m having attachment things with these group of people. And could you affirm for me that, that, that what I did was good and so it was ****ing amazing. It was, it was so cool to use my body to teach and to also wreck and to, and to teach the whole time. I’m having an orgasm and I don’t know how many sex educators have done that, I think is a [00:53:00] real short list.
[00:53:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:01] Yeah. I bet it is
[00:53:02] Matie Fricker: [00:53:02] yeah!
[00:53:03] So I felt like it was a really cool and brave space for me and that
[00:53:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:08] kind of a bucket list moment.
[00:53:10] Matie Fricker: [00:53:10] Yeah. Yeah. And then everyone, you heard it was a good workshop. Like people have been so kind to me. And, and just, you know,
[00:53:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:19] as it should be.
[00:53:20] Matie Fricker: [00:53:20] Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s what I really believe about this space, is that it really seems to hold an ethic of kindness. Above kindness is the currency. Kindness is the way people move through things. Kindness is, is the way people see each other. And so, so it’s, it’s less about who you want to ****.
[00:53:40] for me. and I think it is for other people too, and I think that’s why the sex actually happens. And then, and then in a little while in, which is why I’m like, Oh God, I gotta write things up. Um, in a little while. I, apparently, I, there’s, there’s someone who has not had a lot of girl on girl action.
[00:53:57] Um, and, and her partner. [00:54:00] someone I’m, and I don’t want to like, you know, uh, somebody I’ve never had sex with before and I, uh, like we are like going to go and **** the two of them on the beach. Um, and I’ve got to go get all the safer sex supplies. Cause that’s how I roll and, and
[00:54:17] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:54:17] towels and water bottle,
[00:54:18] Matie Fricker: [00:54:18] See See you know these things well, the sand.
[00:54:21] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:54:21] Yeah. Yeah. Do you need to clear sand?
[00:54:23] Matie Fricker: [00:54:23] Sure. We gotta watch out for sand. So good tips. So I’m going to go grab those and then I’m going to help somebody have a gang bang here at, uh, three 30. So, um, although a lot of people have talked about like, feeling like, like frenzy, then they’ll go, God, this is, and I, I’m not in that place so far.
[00:54:41] I think that, I came in with, not only no expectations. I came in with expectations of it will not be a good place for my body. It will not, and not be a good place for my sexuality like this. I am not like theirs. Like when they give you beads, there’s not even a bead [00:55:00] for my sexuality.
[00:55:00] Like I am, I’m, I’m a, I’m a Dyke. I’m a lesbian. Like, like, uh, and that. I was like, there won’t be anyone like me here. Um, and there’s not a whole lot of people like me here. Like in this space. My sexuality is probably the one of the least represented. And
[00:55:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:23] gay men would be the other one.
[00:55:24] Matie Fricker: [00:55:24] Yeah.
[00:55:24] Last year we had, um, gay male couple, but in the three years, I think that’s the only one that we’ve had actually show up is too Yeah.
[00:55:32] Who are just like, no, we’re not interested. We’re not bisexual. Like, we’re just, and, and what’s been really nice is, uh, no one, no one has taken it upon themselves to try to, convince me otherwise about my body.
[00:55:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:48] I should hope not.
[00:55:49] Matie Fricker: [00:55:49] I know, I know, but have you been in swinger spaces? Have you been, you’ve been in spaces with a lot of men? Yeah. A lot of, you know, or
[00:55:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:56] you just haven’t found the right men?
[00:55:58] Matie Fricker: [00:55:58] Yeah, no. Good. [00:56:00] Well,
[00:56:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:00] and in swingers spaces, that other ones that I’ve been really centered around CIS folks, but also really centered around thinness.
[00:56:06] And when I first came here, that was my big concern is my, my nesting partner is a thin CIS. Dude. Right. And he’s also an amazing fat ally. Like that was one of my requirements when we got together. I was like, you gotta eat like you’re gonna, you’re gonna have to up your game and, and advocate for me and in spaces that I cannot advocate for myself when he took that on and I’m very grateful.
[00:56:29] Matie Fricker: [00:56:29] Great.
[00:56:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:30] And as it should be, as it should be,
[00:56:32]Matie Fricker: [00:56:32] it’s easier, but it’s easier for him to do it. Yeah. Easier for me to do things as a smaller fat person, right? Like,
[00:56:39] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:39] yeah. But that’s, I was worried about. Being fat in this space, because in my experience, a swinger spaces is, it’s all thin people are, they don’t really want me here.
[00:56:48] Right. Um, and that’s gross. And here that has not been, that has not been the case. I know that I have stuff about it until I am reluctant to approach people, unless the signals are real, real clear.
[00:56:59] Matie Fricker: [00:56:59] Yeah.
[00:57:00] [00:57:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:57:00] Um, and so sometimes I’m like, well, maybe I’m, you know, maybe this year I’m finally like, Oh.
[00:57:06] Oh, those people like me. Yeah. But like this is our third time, right. Over a course of this three years. Right? Yeah. And that’s a long time to be in community before you’re like. Oh Hey, maybe they do really want to **** me,
[00:57:18] Matie Fricker: [00:57:18] like I’ve talked to, I’ve talked to some folks who have been coming here for years and years and years.
[00:57:24] you’re like, Oh, I’ve been here, coming here for three years, and we’re just gonna I, I talked to somebody who, who’s been here since the beginning of the takeovers and they didn’t, they didn’t even touch anyone else at all for the first three years.
[00:57:38] And they ever like that. And that’s, and that’s normal too.
[00:57:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:57:42] Yeah.
[00:57:43] Matie Fricker: [00:57:43] That’s healthy too. That’s, yeah, but, but, but in a place where there were spaces, highly sexualized, you feel like everybody’s getting some, and on and on and on. And I feel like that that’s, that is not. The thing that I’m going to take [00:58:00] from this space is probably not the sex.
[00:58:03] Like, I mean, I’m happy. I’m happy that I’m, I’m able to like, I’m to be of service to some folks. I’m happy that I felt desired. I’m happy. I’m happy that I got a really smaller fist, mostly in my ***** yesterday. Like, that was really fun and, and I’m happy for like the connections that I’ve made, but, but.
[00:58:24] The thing that I really am taking from this as being seen as a whole person.
[00:58:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:30] Yeah.
[00:58:31] Matie Fricker: [00:58:31] And that’s why people want to **** me, is that I that it’s that, that I made them laugh a whole lot at the bar, or I said something in a workshop that. That helped them. Or, I mean the people
[00:58:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:46] Or love your body
[00:58:47] Matie Fricker: [00:58:47] or they love my body, they ****ing love my body and they love, they love the clothes I’m wearing.
[00:58:51] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:51] cause they wanna **** you until you jiggle.
[00:58:53]Matie Fricker: [00:58:53] They wanna **** me while I jiggle. Yeah. Um, but it’s, but, but that, um, that. [00:59:00] In the same way where we tend to prioritize romantic relationships. I think we also tend to prioritize sexual relationships. And I’m really actively working to de-center those in my life.
[00:59:12], I feel like this space actually welcomes that too. And so I’m, I have a feeling that a lot of people really like you and I think that they like you for so many more reasons. That, um, and that a lot of them are about your body and your, and your whole person and all, and they will not forget you.
[00:59:32] And that, um, that, that they’re like, like I think, I think there, there have been moments where, uh, where you’ve been there that have helped me feel safe and, and, um. And that this is a place for me and that I hope, I hope that I do some of that work for you and that we all make it a little bit easier for us to feel safe here.
[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, you know, believe that people like you and make a move to, um, I, I know what, I’ve started small moves this year. You know, what I’ve started doing is just asking people if they, if they, if they want a kiss.
[01:00:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:00:14] Yes.
[01:00:15] Matie Fricker: [01:00:15] And I’d be like, I’m kissing people. Do you want to kiss?
[01:00:17] And people are like, yes, I do. Yes, I do. So last night I just made out with a bunch of people. It was so, it’s fine. How does fine.
[01:00:25]Briana Cavanaugh: [01:00:25] Yesterday I told someone like he was walking by and I said, he said, um, I was just telling everyone how hot I think you are. And he was like, hello. Hi. Yes. Good to see you.
[01:00:37] Yeah. I had a lovely make-out and it was really, it was very delicious. But like I. It’s, it’s taken me a while to get to a place in, in this space, in this community where I’m just like, I can, I can see things with my out loud voice. Um, and then yesterday in the pool, there was the two other women and we were two other fat women and we were like squishing altogether.
[01:00:58] And I was just having this like, [01:01:00] amazing, like, ah, it was so good. And, um, I’m much, I’m much shyer with, with women than I am with, um, men.
[01:01:08] Matie Fricker: [01:01:08] DOn’t worry that’s are women are too . That’s why I rarely get laid
[01:01:11] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:01:11] No, I know. It’s ridiculous. I, um, and one of them, I know one of the women was straight, so I was like really reluctant saying they were just like, this is so good.
[01:01:20] Matie Fricker: [01:01:20] yeah, yeah. And then, um, so I think, I think, yeah, you should know that when I was, when I was telling people about my night and day, and like last night you know, I may know some people on my, on my pals were like, what are you doing? Oh Matie, just get in trouble as you’re getting gang banged up in the hot tub.
[01:01:36] And that was not what I was doing. And then I came down and then I was like, Oh yeah. And then, and then I had grilled cheese and pizza with the cools fat kid crew.
[01:01:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:01:44] That’s right. So we do, we have a fat kid crew,
[01:01:47] Matie Fricker: [01:01:47] and I don’t know if that’s, if that’s the words you want to use. But like, but like, definitely like I see, I see you and a few other people, a few other [01:02:00] pals that I see moving around.
[01:02:01] I am like that those kids, I want to ****ing hang out with them. They are cool as ****.
[01:02:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:02:07] And last night was, I got a hit of that and I wouldn’t have put it into words until you said that, but I got, we were all sitting there and I was like, Oh, is this the fat group? Yeah.
[01:02:17] Matie Fricker: [01:02:17] Yeah.
[01:02:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:02:19] And it’s so great cause we’re all sitting there with like our bellies out and most of us are naked and we’re just eating food and like one o’clock in the morning and we’ve been having amazing sex and connections and we’re just like, and it was like, I was like, Oh, we have a crew.
[01:02:32] And there’s like a way that I can relax into it because these folks, um, especially the women in that group are like, they’re my friends and they’re my people. And yeah. And I was noticing how like all of them I’d been in touch with since over the last year since we were here last year. And I was like, Oh, these are like my friends.
[01:02:53] And that is a, I feel like that’s Very different than it was like when I came here and felt very alone and worried and nervous and [01:03:00] all this stuff.
[01:03:01] Okay. Okay. I got it. We should wrap up. So you should do, tell me, tell us where we can find you on your social media and your website
[01:03:08] Matie Fricker: [01:03:08] So you can find me on, um, on self-served Instagram.
[01:03:12] So I, my company is Self Serve Toys. You’ll find me. That’s what a space where, where I tend to would, you know, do a lot of posting. Um, you can also find me on Facebook. I’m Maie Fricker. I don’t take friend requests from people who I don’t know. So send me, send me a w why we should be pals.
[01:03:31] Um, uh, but you can find me. It’s selfservetoys.com and, and I love, I love the work I do. And you can find us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and like all those things, all in all SelfServeToys.com. Tell selfservetoys.com Um, and, and
[01:03:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:03:48] we have the link in the show notes so that you can find great.
[01:03:51] Matie Fricker: [01:03:51] Yeah. Great. And I’ll give a, I’ll do a promo code. Okay. Just to get a discount on sex toys and
[01:03:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:03:56] that’s awesome.
[01:03:57] Yeah, totally. Like they, you know, get a [01:04:00] discount and **** yourself silly. And, and also, um, we could do a whole talk at some other point about BI about fat sex and sex toys and the reasons why they’re amazing and why also like paying attention to what, what your body means and being really clear about that.
[01:04:17] Because when somebody’s market something to fat folks, they’re generally not asking. Like you, what you want and what you need and what will actually work for you. And so, I tend to not have a one size fits all approach just because it doesn’t help. Although “curvy girls sex”, fantastic by L chase.
[01:04:36] So check that out too. And we’ll put all these links in the show notes so you can find them and we’ll make sure that you can find me because she’s thank you all so much. And, um. You know, I, I feel so honored to be a part of this and, uh, I can’t wait to listen to it later cause I, I, uh, I’m having a real good week.
[01:04:55] All right. Thanks everyone for coming. We’ll talk to you later.