EP 15 – Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

EP 15 – Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Ep. 15: Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey #15

Host of the Good Girls Talk About Sex podcast and sexual communication coach, Leah Carey is sharing her thoughts on the importance of sexual freedom and how she spent most of her life being a “very good girl.” Finding sex was boring or painful, Leah didn’t know she could ask for anything different. Listen to Leah’s journey to breaking that pattern and how she’s now passionate about breaking fear and shame for women. 


Ladies, it’s time to explore what you want and deserve!


What we’re talking about


  • Trauma Isn’t Always Physical
  • Leah’s Journey To Sexual Freedom
  • Body Positivity & Body Neutrality


Trauma Isn’t Always Physical

Growing up, Leah was told by her dad that she was fat, ugly and no one would ever love her. As she became an adult, she discovered that these were not inherent truths about herself but she couldn’t see that because she had been believing in what was said to her. As an adult, Leah believed in her brokenness in part because of the sex she had in her life which was either painful or simply not sesnsational. Leah shares that not all trauma is physical. She hadn’t been physically abused, but her memories were enough to cause trauma and create coping mechanisms that she created as a child and carried on as an adult. 


Leah doesn’t do trigger warnings when it comes to her podcast or content because she feels they’re overused and don’t give the message that people are stronger than they think. Every one of us is stronger than the trauma we’ve experienced. 


Leah’s Journey To Sexaul Freedom


Having little to no sexual sensation, Leah got to a place in life where she felt there should be pleasure when having sex and discovered tantric massage in which people with vaginas were able to refind sensation. She booked herself a 3 hour session and discovered that her pleasure signals were not getting to her brain, but her body, nervous system and sexual responses were all normal. She was not broken! And with that discovery, a door which had been slammed shut years before was suddenly opened back up. 


Leah went on a mission to find pleasure and on a solo trip around the country, she started posting and replying to Craigslist personal ads which led to threesomes and other adventures she’d been curious about. Part of Leah’s journey involved going to Hedonism and to her surprise, she found that she fit right in and that no one had a perfect body. The people who are most attractive and sexy are those who happily inhabit their bodies. The level of sexiness of a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the size of her body and everything to do with how she inhabits her body.


Body Positivity & Body Neutrality


Briana describes what it means to be fat positive, which is being comfortable with the word “fat.” Leah comes from a sex positive Portland community in which their goal isn’t body positivity, but body neutrality. Leah shares that it’s not about fawning over our bodies, but getting to the point that we are ok with our bodies, just as we are ok with having fingernails. It’s working towards not obsessing with any part of your body or your body overall and finding accepting in what it is and does for you. 


Are you 5% braver than you were last week?



Leah Carey’s Website 

Good Girls Talk About Sex Podcast

Good Girls Talk About Sex Facebook

Good Girls Talk About Sex Instagram

Good Girls Talk About Sex YouTube

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Twitter: @exxxxtrafat


11:21 – 12:08 (47 sec) LC – No, I think it’s really important…that is not how it works.


16:43 – 17:42 (59 sec LC) there has to be more…you are not broken




  1. I fully believed in my brokenness because of the sex I had in my life. LC
  2. I don’t do trigger warnings. I think you’re stronger than the trauma you’ve experienced. LC
  3. You’ll go as far, as fast as you’re ready for. LC
  4. Not all trauma is physical. LC
  5. The level of sexiness of a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the size of her body and everything to do with how she inhabits her body. LC
  6. My goal isn’t about body positivity, it’s about body neutrality. LC
  7. You just need to be 5% braver than you were last week. LC
  8. Trigger warnings are overused because they’re not giving people the message that they’re stronger than they think. LC

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

Ep. 12: Fat & Fertility with Nicola Salmon

Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon


Nicola Salmon is a fat-positive fertility coach and acupuncturist that has helped women around the world to find their path to something they’ve wanted their entire lives…parenthood. Today she talks with us about her journey to this inspiring career, and what she feels is one of the most crucial steps in helping her clients achieve their dream.


This information-packed episode is one you won’t want to miss!

What we’re talking about


  • Growing Up With the Shame of Being Fat
  • Trauma and How It Led to Becoming A Fat-Positive Fertility Coach
  • Embracing Her Own Fat Identity and Helping Other Bigger Bodied Women Get Pregnant


Growing Up With the Shame of Being Fat


Nicola lays it all out there with how it felt to grow up bigger, and feeling “different” than her peers. As young as age 8-9, she realized that she wasn’t the same as her friends. She was “bigger.” She was pressured to do things to get “healthy” (aka: lose weight), but Nicola accepted her size, and came to her “fat identity” at this age even with external pressure to see the number on the scale get smaller. At age 16 she was diagnosed with PCOS (Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome), and told she would never be able to have children.


Trauma and How It Led to Becoming A Fat-Positive Fertility Coach


When Nicola was just out of university, she was living in London. She was soundly asleep when a man was shot on her doorstep, and bullets flew just inches above her window. This led to PTSD, and, in her search for healing, she discovered acupuncture. The acupuncture was a game changer, helping to relieve her PTSD, and spurring her interest to help others with this tool. Her natural interest in PCOS and hormones led her to become a trained fertility coach.


Embracing Her Own Fat Identity and Helping Other Bigger Bodied Women Get Pregnant


Even though Nicola did not struggle with becoming pregnant, it was after delivering her own child that she not only embraced her fat identity, but she wanted to help other bigger bodied women to achieve their dream of parenthood as well. She focuses on finding supportive healthcare professionals, mental and physical aspects of how being fat affects the goal of becoming pregnant, and creating a positive mindset to set your body up for success.



Nicola Salmon on Instagram

Nicola Salmon on Facebook

Nicola Salmon’s Website

Fat and Fertile by Nicola Salmon

Fat Girl Finds Love Facebook Group



  • 20:23 – 21:15 (52 sec NS) For a lot of people, when they’re going through fertility…not getting enough intake for your body.
  • 25:24 – 25:57 (33 sec NS) One of the things I recommend…we should be looking at and focusing on.
  • 28:26 – 29:11 (44 sec NS) I would suggest that they spend some time…they don’t want to miss that opportunity to make a baby.
  • 31:46 – 32:20 (34 sec NS) Really figuring out what we believe…it just helps things fit together better.



  1. Weight is meant to fluctuate. It’s meant to fluctuate throughout the day, throughout our menstrual cycle, throughout our lifetime. – NS
  2. Making sure we’re getting all our needs met, and making sure that we’re taking care of those needs both sexual and non-sexual intimacy needs is really important. NS
  3. In order to advocate for yourself, you have to, at some level, believe you’re worth advocating for. BC

A mindset is a really critical component of being able to have a joyful, pleasurable life. If you’re worried all the time, you’re not going to see the joy coming at you. You’re not going to be able to be in the moment & be joyful. BC 

If you enjoyed this episode and want more, join our FB group:


You can also find Fat Girl Finds Love:

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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatgirlfindslove/

Twitter: @exxxxtrafat

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

EP 12 – Desire with Dalia Kinsey

Ep. 12: Desire with Dalia

Desire with Dalia 

“It’s funny how that works, when you have a desire. It just comes back stronger and stronger and stronger.” Dalia Kinsey

We’re in a bit of transition with our show notes. We just hired someone to help. So there are tons of details coming.


For now you can reach Dalia:


School Nutrition Podcast (iTunes)

School Nutrition Podcast (Spotify)

Follow Dalia on Facebook  Instagram LinkedIn


If you enjoyed this episode and want more, join our FB group:


You can also find Fat Girl Finds Love:

FP Page: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatgirlfindslove/

Twitter: @exxxxtrafat

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 11 – Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria Jackson Nefertiti

EP 11 – Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria Jackson Nefertiti

Ep. 11: Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria JN!

Gloria Jackson Nefertiti and Briana talk Bisexuality, Polyamory and Wombats!

In this episode I hung out with one of my favorite folks: Gloria Jackson Nefertiti! We’ve been online friends for 20+ years and only this year met in person! Wild, huh?


So we talk about:


Polyamory and having non-hierarchical relationships

Bisexuality and both being bisexual

Racism in poly community

Being valued and loved

Oh and WoMBaTs! Come find out what a WoMBaT is!



Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti is a polyamory educator, bisexual activist, and sex geek who is available for panel discussions and presentations on responsible non-monogamy, bisexuality, transcending shame, and abuse in the poly and sex-positive communities. She has done presentations and panel discussions at various schools, colleges, and conferences all over the United States and Canada, including Loving More/Poly Living (Denver, CO and Philadelphia, PA), SF BiCon (San Francisco and Oakland, CA), West Coast Bound Kink Conference (Coquitlam, BC), and ConvergeCon (Vancouver, BC). She has been fascinated by relationships and sexuality as long as she can remember, even during her fundamentalist xtian days. She is also a breast cancer survivor, published poet, public speaker, singer, photographer, performance artist and long-time artists’ model. You can learn more about Gloria from the following articles: #WomanCentered: GLORIA JACKSON-NEFERTITI – part of a series of interviews seeking to tell the inspiring, interconnected stories of women’s reproductive health, rights, and empowerment (PART ONE https://tinyurl.com/yat9pgpb and PART TWO https://tinyurl.com/y7ur8puu), and “Life with Two Boyfriends: Inside a Polyamorous Relationshiphttps://tinyurl.com/y73fgsow


You can find Gloria on 

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GloriaJacksonNefertiti 

Twitter https://twitter.com/gloriajn 

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gloriajacksonnefertiti/ 

Her website, Not Gloria Jean http://notgloriajean.net/ 

Gloria lives in Seattle, WA.

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

Blog – One Good Covid Day

Blog – One Good Covid Day

Blog – One Good Covid Day

One Good Covid Day aka Briana Goes Out 

I kept a liveJouranl for about a dozen years. Andthen I moved my writing to a private forum and without the feedback and friends I basically gave up and took to writing in journals again.

But I thought, in addition t podcast episodes that I’d just write here and talk about life as a Fat Girl. Or as I call it: life.

We live in “unprecedented time.” Again. And I am getting to the point where I can’t stand that phrase. Yes things are terrible and yes I have been sheltering the hell in place. I just mean, turn a different phrase.


Today though I wanted to share about one good day I had.

It was Wednesday. And I had to Run. An. Errand. In future times looking back this sentence will either be seen as “I don’t know what the hell this nice white lady is talking about or “OMG YOU LEFT THE HOUSE?!?!?!?!?!”

And I honestly don’t know which at this point.

But I, your heroine needed to get some horticultural oil to help put the liquid seweed fertilizer on her peach trees becasue they got the curl fungus. Yeah, I know. But I have gardening time now.

So I dutuifully put in my order in to Home Depot on Thursday and waited for the confirmation email. I got that Friday. So the following Wednesady I frantically called them to make sure they hadn’t sent my shit back. They hadn’t.

So I headed over.

First good thing: it’s sunny and there’s no traffic!

If you don’t live in the California Bay Area you might not know that driving on the 101 freeway is a crap shoot.

Yes anytime day or night you might hit traffice going anywhere for any reason. One thing the Covid has done is kill the traffic (too soon?).

I arrived with my mask and my order number. I slid into one of the curbside delivery spots and put my mask on.

The nice people got me all the things. I was in and out in less than 10 minutes. That was awesome. But the best part was seeing other humans. I am non-essential (accoutning, yo!) and anyway I’ve worked from home for 10 years.

But usually I see people. we go to lunch, I swim and work out at the gym with a group of amazing folks.

I see friends.

I run errands.

I go downtown to the movies. I sit and play games under a tree in the paprk nearby.

I walk in the woods.

I just go out and enjoy the world.

I garden.

Of those things, right now I can do just one. Garden.  And I, like many of you, miss the hell out of my friends.

So even seeing people calmed my anxiety.

That’s a response of the limbic brain, ie your nervous system, telling me it’s gonna be fine.

But then I hadn’t been to a store in 10 weeks.

I haven’t seen other humans in person in 8.

That length of time is killer.

From there I went to another small local garden supply to grab some starts. Lavendar, sage, (yes soon we’ll have the whole song – I already have parsley at home)!

I went there both to support local and I knew their nursery is outside and that lessens the risk of infection of Covid-19.

I put on my mask.

They had sanitized the carts as they came back and people were at least 6 feet away from each other and no one touched their faces.

A covid paradise.

I got to walk around near other humans, who were all wrapped in masks for about 15 minutes!

The sunshine on my skin, so many plants to look at and smell. I could plan something even if it is just my garden.

I could just feel the sunlight, the warmth for a moment with people. Soaking the sun into my skin, I could feel the very tip of my joy returning.

I have missed this so much

Oh and I bought hedge clippers. The good ones. Not the biggest ones, but as my love says, they finger removers.

When I got home with my haul I immediately went to town on the hedge betweenour place and the neighbor’s place. You know, the fucking overgrown thing that I’ve been looking for weeks in disgust.

I chopped the crap out of it with so much ease I almost didn’t stop. Almost.

It was sooooooo satisfying!

And then I went inside and drank and ice cold glass of water and kissed my love.

And I felt good.

Uniequivocably good. For a little while I worried about nothing. Just happiness vitamin D on my skin and chilled.

The world still exists and for a day I just felt good.

This is a rae day. I have been doing my practices and getting out to the garden. I’m privileged AF to not have to go to work in a place with other humans. And we got a blow up hot tub set up just in the nick of time!

Privilege. And I’m feeling it.

I have massive gratitude for essential folks: grocery sotre workers, deliveyr drivers, healthcare workers and all the folks out there working. 

And also love to all the folks who have lost jobs and family and friends to Covid-19. It’s a lot.

Sending you tons of love!

Join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 10 – Trolls and Georgia is Re-opening? with Dalia Kinsey

EP 10 – Trolls and Georgia is Re-opening? with Dalia Kinsey

Ep. 10: Fatphobia, Trolls and … GeorgIA? with Dalia Kinsey!

Dalia Kiney and Briana talk Fatphobia, Trolls and Georgia

Dalia Kinsey joins us again this week!

This week really focus on:

Our week. How things are going podcasting in the times of pandemic

how Covid is affecting Dalia and I.

And then we talk about trolls. We are looking for a guest to come on and talk about trolls! Is that you? Reach out to us! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod


And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Dalia Kinsey joins us again this week!

This week really focus on:

Our week. How things are going podcasting in the times of pandemic

how Covid is affecting Dalia and I.

And then we talk about trolls. We are looking for a guest to come on and talk about trolls! Is that you? Reach out to us! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod


And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 08 – Fat Body  Pilates with Lindsey Strobel

EP 08 – Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel

Ep. 7: Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel!

Lindsey Strobel,

…the brains and bod behind Fat Body Pilates, was introduced to the concept of fat acceptance on Livejournal in the late 90s. Discovering a movement that didn’t view her body as something to apologize for was incredibly affirming, and she has remained connected to the cause across a variety of social media platforms and in her local Minneapolis/St. Paul community.


Lindsey began practicing Pilates in 2016 at the suggestion of a physical therapist and quickly recognized the benefits of the method, despite a culture that struck her as exclusive of individuals in larger bodies. In 2017 she began her Pilates teacher training through Balanced Body. Her Fat Body Pilates Instagram account was created in 2019 in response to the lack of body diversity in Pilates imagery. 


Show notes: Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel!


In her free time, when she’s not on her reformer forgetting to count her repetitions, Lindsey can be found curled up with her cats, a cup of tea, and a good book, gardening, or traveling with her partner. Follow her on Instagram: @fatbodypilates

In this episode we talk about:
– How she found her fat identity 

– Fatshionistas on Livejournal

– How she got started in pilates

– She and her husband doing pilates

– How pilates is set up for thin people

– How lineage contributes to thin gaze and the idea that this is only for thin people

– Lindsey being an example of a fat person who is doing the work

– Financial privilege in being able to go to classes regularly and working to change access for more bodies in pilates

– Using her body to show people that more is possible with pilates, and fatness!

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 03 – Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline

EP 03 – Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline

Body Liberation with Lindley Ashline!

 Body Liberation!

We’ve been doing the LIVE interviews and i love them.

I’ve been following Lindley for years! She’s really dedicated to body liberation and I really appreciate her continued commitment to showing up in fat community. 


This was the perfect time to talk to her about what she’s up to. Body Liberation photos, the Body Love box, amazing fat stock photos. And of course the critical importance of telling our stories! Links and more below!


Detailed show notes below!

Show notes: Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline!


Lindley Ashline (pronounced LIN-lee, she/her) creates artwork that celebrates the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional “beauty” standards. Lindley is also the creator of Body Liberation Stock and the Body Love Box, a monthly body-acceptance subscription box. She lives outside Seattle with her husband and two feline overlords.

Find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly Body Liberation Guide at http://bit.ly/bodyliberationguide.

Social links:
FB: https://www.facebook.com/bodyliberationphotos
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bodyliberationwithlindley


Today we talked about:

  • Live Journal and Fatshionista
  • Coming up in Fat Fashion
  • “The higher up including size as you go, the harder it’s going to be to access the same level of style.”
  • The magic of fashion
  • People not understanding sizes and not being able to think above a size XL.
  • There are lots of sizes of people. Many more than on tv or in the media. Representation matters!
  • The importance of being in diet talk free spaces.
  • The importance of telling our stories and being seen.
  • Lots of deeply personal stories about being photographed and being seen.

Body Liberation with  Lindley Ashline

Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:00] Welcome

[00:00:04] to fat girl finds love a podcast about that. Love that sex and that relationship. I am your fat host, Brianna Kavanaugh. Hi everybody. This is Briana Cavanaugh, and we’re doing a guest interview today on guest interview days, we learned from Anne about folks doing fat positive or fat positive adjacent work.

[00:00:23] As a reminder, we don’t bleep out cuss words or swear words and we don’t edit for explicit material. So this is your warning that this interview may contain adult material in the Cerner discretion. Is. Advise this episode, we’re going to be hanging out with Linley Ashline. She, um, her pronouns are, she in her creates artwork that celebrates the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional quote unquote beauty standards.

[00:00:52] Lindley is also the creator of body liberation stock. And the body love box, a monthly body acceptance, a subscription box. She lives outside Seattle with her husband and her two feline overlords, and you can find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly body liberation guide at Bitly. Slash body liberation guide, and we’ll put these links and then social media links for Lindley in the show notes.

[00:01:19] So you can just scroll down and click on the

[00:01:22] link. Okay. Welcome. And Lee.

[00:01:24] Lindley Ashline: [00:01:24] Hi. Glad to be here. Yay.

[00:01:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:26] So I know you because we are in fact communities together and somebody somewhere was like, Oh, you should know her. And so we became friends on Facebook and. Um, you have a, uh, like a Facebook community where you post all kinds of cool links and ideas and conversations.

[00:01:47] And then also I just really enjoyed, uh, I gave love your stock photos. I was one of the things, I was like, Oh my gosh. And I’ve scrolled through very many times and I’m like, especially when I’m feeling a little low about my body, I’m like, Oh, I know where I need to look. And I just like go look through all the things.

[00:02:02] And then also, as I’ve been looking at decorating my new home. I keeping like, Oh wait, maybe I need that one. Why that one? Maybe I need to get these things. And sort of in the process of talking to my sweetheart about being like, yeah, we need some of these for our walls. We need more fat

[00:02:16] arts.

[00:02:18] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:18] So that’s my experience.

[00:02:20] I’ve been very enjoying connecting with you on Facebook for it

[00:02:23] for quite awhile. And

[00:02:24] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:24] so I’m pleased that you’re coming to play with us today.

[00:02:28] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:28] Yeah. It’s really exciting to be here. Yay.

[00:02:32] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:32] So with everyone, we start with what I call vital sets. So you could say, why don’t you say your own name? Because sometimes that’s helpful for pronunciation.

[00:02:42] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:42] Sure. My name is Lindley Ashline. It is a, it is more or less like it looks, except I leave out the D in Lindley because I’m setting and although I live out outside Seattle now, I was born and raised in North Carolina. So the two things that I can cook are sweet potato casserole and sweetie, and I’m terrible at everything else.

[00:03:03] But I can cook, I can cook.

[00:03:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:10] So what race

[00:03:11] are you?

[00:03:11] Lindley Ashline: [00:03:11] See, I am a white street ish, cisgender woman. I’m 39 years old and I where I identify as a large fat in. There’s sort of an, a very informal system of body size. And, and I’m not sure if it’s been talked about here on this podcast before, but in fact, community, we occasionally talk about fat sizing being, uh, maybe at the very smallest end, maybe, maybe size 10, 12, 14 in United States clothing sizes that might be a small fast.

[00:03:41] And then you would have a medium fat and a large fat. And as some people will call. People at the very largest end of the body size spectrum, a super fat or incentive fat. And so I’m, I wear about a size 26 28 and maybe lane Bryant style size him. And so identify as a large fat. I live with a couple of invisible chronic illnesses.

[00:04:01] I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder and I also live with some muscle issues in my arms that occasionally, okay. All the time. Give me some, give me some mobility challenges. So, uh, so when I speak and write, I’m usually doing so from. The, the lens of these vital stats that I’ve just given.

[00:04:22] Nice. Thank you.

[00:04:24] And then do you, you also tell us your relationship status and kind of your, your relationship style.

[00:04:31] Yeah, I am, uh, I’m married in a hetero relationship to the street man, and I actually married my high school sweetheart. So were the, were those were those people who got super lucky, super young. Uh, we started dating when I was.

[00:04:49] 16 and he was 17 I think it’s been a long time ago, and we went to neighboring high school. Then having mutual friend who introduced us, we were together through college. We went to separate colleges, but we maintained a semi long distance relationship for a number of years that way. And, and got married when I was a junior in college and he was a senior.

[00:05:06] And so we have pretty much been. Um, I mean, like I said, I’m very lucky. He got very lucky, very young. We’d been there. I believed this really great, stable relationship, um, monogamous relationship at least so far. And so it’s both fascinating and kind of boring at the same time. Um, and then I don’t have a lot of like different relationship stories to tell, but be in, in a very longterm, stable relationship.

[00:05:31] But like I said, it’s a, it’s a privilege and, you know, luck and privilege and also some work to maintain that.

[00:05:37] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. And then is there anything else, any other marginalized identities or disabilities that you haven’t named?

[00:05:47] Lindley Ashline: [00:05:47] Not that I can think of.

[00:05:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:48] Okay. So how did you come in to find your fat identity or your fat positive identity?

[00:05:56] Lindley Ashline: [00:05:56] livejournal.com. Basically, in a nutshell. Uh, so, so back when livejournal.com was a big deal back in the late nineties and early two thousands, the site still exists, but I don’t, I don’t know how all. Uh, how popular it is these days, but, uh, it

[00:06:15] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:06:15] was, you know, it’s owned by Russians and that, like, it’s really, yeah.

[00:06:19] It’s really weird. Yeah,

[00:06:22] Lindley Ashline: [00:06:22] yeah, yeah. And, uh, and yeah, when Facebook became a big thing was not too long after a Russian company with potential ties to. Russian government bought LiveJournal and it was a, it’s a big mess at the time when Facebook was getting popular, so many of us just migrated over to Facebook.

[00:06:42] But before that, in about 2006, 2007, uh, I happened to run across I LiveJournal community, which is kind of like a Facebook group called Fatshionista. It’s like fashionista, but with, yeah. And, and it blew my mind, blew my mind because there were hundreds of mostly fat white women, um, and a few women of color who people were just.

[00:07:08] Rocking it like just being fashionable and, and sexy or trendy or classy or whatever, you know, just living their big, bold lives in big, bold clothing and wearing horizontal stripes and wearing miniskirts and wearing. Um, before, like bra labs were a thing, but like if rods had been a thing, they would have been out there wearing bralette outerwear and like wearing, wearing anything they wanted and being fashionable and stylish and totally blew my mind because like many, many other people, I grew up in a world of, you know, fat girls don’t wear horizontal stripes and fat girls don’t show their belly outline and fat girls only get, some fat girls won’t do that.

[00:07:48] And these people were just. Cheerfully ignoring all that. And I basically sat there for a year or two and just lurked was like, what is this magic? But you know, surely that like, okay, but fine. Maybe they’re, you know, well, maybe she’s an hourglass. I mean, like, I can’t access that. I’m a pair, or, or maybe, Oh, well, she can, she can pull that off.

[00:08:08] But I couldn’t pull that off. And eventually, with, with exposure, I realize that I can pull off anything I want to, to, I can do that too. And I mean, and that said, Mmm. Is the higher up including size as you go, the harder it’s going to be to access the same level of style. There’s someone who is in a smaller clothing size category is able to, but within those constraints I may have to work a lot harder to do it, but I can wear that stuff too.

[00:08:33] And that. Having access to both resource wise cause a lot of what people were doing was researching. This is before a little bit before the explosion of plus size clothing on the internet. And so you might have to work really, really, really hard to find a neon yellow miniskirt if that was what you wanted, uh, to, to complete that outfit.

[00:08:53] And so a lot of it was training and resources. Oh, I heard about this in the company. That makes so and so, so. Yeah. And so just that was kind of my entree. And the thing is that I’m not, by nature, I’m not a particularly stylish or fashionable person. And now that I work for myself, at the time I was working in an office every day.

[00:09:12] Now that I work for myself and have my own business, I pretty much live in. Towards super soft t-shirts, which is what I’m wearing right now. And, and like yoga pants. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure half the people, half the people who hear that towards deeper, softer, like, yes, yes,

[00:09:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:09:28] yes, yes.

[00:09:30] Lindley Ashline: [00:09:30] But, but you know, as I pretty much live in whatever’s comfortable and clean these days, emphasis on the comfortable.

[00:09:35] So as I matured in my sense of self and in my sense of what do I actually want to live in. And again, also as I moved from having to appear in an office every day to, you know, be being in my home office. Most of the time my sense has changed waiver towards just whatever’s comfortable, but just having access to fashion, having access to what everybody else was able to.

[00:09:59] Yeah. And you know, by everybody else, I mean people in smaller bodies. Then the my specific body, like what? It just seems like it was just magic that I would never be able to access. And then when I was able to, to to mentally access it, suddenly it was like, Oh my God, I could wear a highlighter, yellow pencil skirt if I want.

[00:10:16] And then I would go by that. And so I moved from just lurking. To actually do an outfit of the day, post myself and do, wait, I didn’t even realize it at the time, but I was starting this process of learning to see myself to see what, yeah, I actually looked like,

[00:10:34] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:34] let’s talk. Can talk about that for a minute.

[00:10:37] How often, first of all, how often do you get to see ourselves and how often do other people see us accurately? Right? I can’t tell you how often somebody was like, Oh yeah, well, we just have a, we have an extra large t-shirt that

[00:10:52] Lindley Ashline: [00:10:52] it’s gonna fit you fine. I’m like, have you seen,

[00:10:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:56] what is it that you see? Like what are you

[00:10:58] Lindley Ashline: [00:10:58] looking at?

[00:10:59] How do you know?

[00:11:02] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:02] Or they’ll say things like, yeah, I mean, it goes up to size. Like, I mean, like 200 pounds, right?

[00:11:06] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:06] And I’m like, what the hell is happening

[00:11:09] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:09] over there?

[00:11:12] Just as it’s surprising how.

[00:11:15] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:15] Little

[00:11:16] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:16] people see themselves in each other and have any sense of what their body size

[00:11:23] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:23] really is

[00:11:24] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:24] anyway. And I blame that on diet culture and this idea that everybody’s supposed to be thin, so we can’t really talk about.

[00:11:34] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:34] Yeah, and we have to assume, I’m going to get off into attention now, but like we assume culturally is that we hear these numbers that are thrown out there as like, Oh, well as long as you’re not 400 pounds. Or, you know, okay, but you know, what about somebody who weighs 300 pounds? It’s like the limits of our imagination about bodies.

[00:11:58] And so when we need somebody who weighs 300 pounds or four pounds or 500 pounds, we don’t know. We don’t know what that looks like, but that also, it also varies really, really, really, really, really widely. Among bodies. So we also really hard to tell. Uh, I weigh 270 pounds because I don’t dye it. My weight is very stable.

[00:12:16] I haven’t been weighed in three years, and I can, I can tell you that it’s 270 pounds because it doesn’t change. And I wear a size 26 28. I have a friend who wears a size 26 28 who weighs a hundred 125 pounds more than I do. Uh, in a Facebook group yesterday in a discussion, I happened to see somebody who weighs 270 pounds and wears a size 14, 16.

[00:12:42] And so these are the, yeah, the range is really, wow. Just dependent on your body shape and how you carry your weight. And also, I don’t know, we, we joke, we joke about my friend and I who wear the this clothing size, but we’re a hundred 125 pounds apart. We joke about one of us being very fluffy and one of us be very dense.

[00:13:00] Because otherwise, how does that work? How does that work?

[00:13:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:03] When have you as a feather? One of eco rock?

[00:13:07] Lindley Ashline: [00:13:07] Yeah, the feather in the bag of feathers in a bag. So yeah, so you just, you know, human, human bodies are wild and variable and you, and you can’t, you cannot tell what somebody’s ways by looking at them clearly.

[00:13:21] But also it means that when we do encounter somebody. Two ways. One of these numbers that we assigned to the four, this limits of our imagination about bodies. We’re like, Oh, that’s an actual body that exists. Oh, Oh, that’s what that looks like, because we don’t have any frame of reference. Right. It’s just sort of this boogeyman number.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:42] Right. Because we don’t, we don’t actually talk about numbers and size, and that’s why I wanted to start with numbers and size is like people don’t have really any idea what, you know, what’s out there in the world.

[00:13:54] Lindley Ashline: [00:13:54] Right, right. And you know, and now they, now that you have that number, you know, 270 pounds, size 26 28 you can go look at my website and you can see my body.

[00:14:04] And you can see what that looks like, but it’s only one data point. You know? That’s not right. Lindley’s body is the representation of what 270 pounds looks like, because again,

[00:14:13] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:13] no, but it is one. Yeah. Yeah. But it is good to look at that. And when you’re like 26 28 you’re four X, like, I know this varies quite a lot, but if you were going to go buy a.

[00:14:25] A tee shirt and you’re like four X five

[00:14:29] Lindley Ashline: [00:14:29] it depends on the brand. And if it’s one of the newer Chinese brands, it’s like a 12 X. Right?

[00:14:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:35] Cause that cause they’re enormous. The numbers go really like, yeah, for the same thing. I was very surprised how all of that is working. So what do I want to ask you? I want to ask you something about how, how is that for you?

[00:14:51] Like how is. How is it to be fat positive in your life?

[00:14:58] Lindley Ashline: [00:14:58] Uh, for me it has been relatively easy. My family is not on the same page as I am, but we’re Southern, so we will use, we use our words very strategically, which means we, we, we also don’t use our words very strategically. So mostly we just don’t talk about it and pieces maintained.

[00:15:17] And because body acceptance and fat liberation and fat positivity are, because I have been involved in the movement for. A decade now actively. And because I run my own business where that, that liberation is also the basis of the business. And because I moved cross country during, uh, during the period of my activism, I have deliberately structured my life so that I am surrounded by people.

[00:15:51] Who are at various points in their own body acceptance journeys, but are mostly diet talk free. And mostly, uh, you know, mostly I get to hang out with people who believe in what I’m doing, which is a huge village and, and a wonderful. Joy most of the time because we get to have conversations. I don’t have to have the, you know, show me the science that says that that bodies can become sin and in the long term, because it doesn’t exist, you know, I don’t have to have that conversation every second.

[00:16:20] I don’t have to go to PTA to meetings where I’m surrounded by diet talk. I don’t have to go into an office. Most of the time I do some corporate work part time and there’s some that culture there and it’s a really good reminder of. The privilege that I have in my life to not have to encounter that constantly, but mostly I will have to, uh, and I have surrounded myself with really amazing body-positive friends and you know, and so in my life, that looks pretty easy.

[00:16:48] The, the worst that I deal with as far as people being nasty about my body is Instagram trolls, basically. And that is something that every activist. Deals with to a certain extent.

[00:17:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:00] Yep. Thank you. Thank you for that look. I mean, I think all of those things where it’s like you’ve structured your life so that it is easy.

[00:17:07] The, I think there’s a a piece in there about having destruction in your life that if you don’t, so I’ve been fat positive for a long time, but it’s only the last few years that I’ve been working to structure my life so that the people who are. Like literally physically in my life actually are either fat, fat, positive, or some version of a fat ally.

[00:17:28] Like they’re, they’re not going to talk about diet talk stuff. Um, and when I moved here, so it’s been not quite a year that I lived in Redwood city. What I noticed is making new friends, I have to kind of go through some of it again, where like I sat down to dinner with another fat woman, or I was like, Oh great.

[00:17:47] She seems so positive. This is going great. And immediately she starts talking about keto and weight loss and diet. And I was like

[00:17:55] Lindley Ashline: [00:17:55] shocked.

[00:17:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:56] Like I was like, I haven’t dealt with this in a long time. And it was this reminder. Kind of like, Oh, right. Just because people are fat doesn’t mean that they’re fat positive.

[00:18:05] And just because they’re in similar circles doesn’t mean that they’re, you know, necessarily fat positive. And I started tried to set boundaries with her and say, I don’t really want to talk about that. And, and what I noticed was we’re not friends. I couldn’t get her to stop talking about her

[00:18:24] Lindley Ashline: [00:18:24] dieting.

[00:18:25] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:25] And.

[00:18:26] I kind of didn’t know what to do. Like it had been so long since I had had to say to someone, look, I don’t, I don’t want to talk to you about that. Like I don’t, I don’t want diet talk in this space. Yeah. It’s been a very interesting journey of Regan making friends, moving, like moving. I didn’t move cross country, but you have been finding it quite challenging.

[00:18:45] So I’m glad to hear that. It feels like it’s, it’s easy. You know that you’ve been able to create spaces for yourself and the. And there’s a way that it’s kind of a bummer that you have to create spaces that are gonna work for you. But I think in some way, like we all have to create spaces that are going to work for us.

[00:19:00] And some of us has had the privilege of being able to do that, I think. And, and some folks less so. So I’m very. Overjoyed that you’re like fighting for any space

[00:19:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:19:09] for that. Yeah, and, and because I am an introvert and most of my work takes place right here at my computer desk where I’m sitting now, you know, as a photographer, you know, I’m out photographing, but I’m photographing with specific people.

[00:19:24] And then, you know, and generally, generally it’s, if somebody comes to work with me, they’re going to be bought into what I’m doing because it’s, it’s really hard to. Ignore all the signals I put out. When you come in as a client, you know, I have a whole guide up front where we talk about, I’m not going to Photoshop you if you’re dieting.

[00:19:41] You know, I’m not going to tell you you can’t be my client, but we’re not going to talk about that here. You know, I have all kinds of of boundaries in place that are, they’re both, you know, both for my protection, because if we’re in this vulnerable moment, you know, and I’ve got a camera in my hand, it’s going to be really hard for me to represent you in an honest and vulnerable way.

[00:19:58] If I’m also having to have the diet talk. Boundary setting in person. So I have a whole series of business boundaries set up where by the time you meet me in person. People who have or have not, people who have not confronted basic levels of diet, culture within themselves don’t generally make it all the way to meeting maybe these days, but I will say when I started setting those boundaries, I’m not going to participate in diet talk.

[00:20:24] I’m not going to sympathize with you while you bash your body. I’m not going to share your weight loss is your body. You get to do what you want with it, but I’m not going to congratulate you on your weight loss surgery. I’m going to congratulate you on. Taking charge in your own life and making your own decisions.

[00:20:41] And then, you know, and then I’m gonna, I’m going to tell you that you, you’re the sovereign of your own life, but I’m not also not going to be like, yeah, about your weight loss retreat. I’m just not. And I have lost friends that way. But when I started setting those boundaries, and when I, when I started doing my photographic work in 2015.

[00:21:01] And started posting photos of half naked fat ladies on my Facebook, because that’s essentially what I do. Uh, among many other things. I was afraid that I wouldn’t have any friends left. You know, I had just moved cross country a year before and I was making some friends, but my Facebook community, my personal friends lists was full of old coworkers and family members and who are, who were.

[00:21:29] Generally pretty conservative and all these acquaintances and friends that I’ve made along the way. And then the random semi strangers you accumulate on your, on your Facebook, you know? And I just, I figured I would have three friends left the next day. The first time I posted one of those photos. And what I found was that as I started setting boundaries around my body and around dire culture and started.

[00:21:53] Really, I started, I went from being very quiet about my body positivity. I started out as positive. So, you know, body is great. And now, and you know, maybe in 2011 or 2012 when I started posting outfit of the day pictures, you know, it was very much a, I can look cute too. And now I am. Well, a lawn roaring ranting.

[00:22:18] Yeah, boundary setting, bad-ass that liberation activist people have self selected out along the way. You know, some of my old coworkers before I moved, I was taking voice lessons, which was a lot of fun and a lot of the, um, quite a few of the acquaintances that I had made through that were Mormon. And for a lot of my Mormon friends, like the half naked fat ladies was not going to fly.

[00:22:46] You know? And so I lost a lot of my Mormon friends and people. I mean, and nobody, nobody came to me and was like, you’re the worst. I’m leaving. You know, people just quietly unfriended. And that was fine because I don’t want to inflict things on them that are in line with their value systems, of course, because again, they have sovereignty over their own lives and bodies and Facebook feeds.

[00:23:07] But what it meant was that it made room for the people who thought that was the best. You know, I recently changed my newsletter to be even more fat, liberation based. That’s the, the body liberation guide that we’ve talked about that we’ve mentioned, and I’m losing people, but I’m gaining people people faster than I’m losing because wishy washy.

[00:23:29] You know, by either great. That was good for me at that time and that’s, that’s good for, for many, many, many people. And that has a really valuable role in body acceptance. But I’m at a point where I’m like, I’m not doing one Oh one anymore. I’m doing like two Oh one and three Oh one in my own life and in my work.

[00:23:46] And people are hungry for that. And so I was, I was afraid when I started setting boundaries that, and really being open about my work, that I was just going to lose everybody in my life. But a surprising number of people were like, no, this is awesome sticker. You know, we’re going to stick around. And again, I mean, you know, I just find more people like that everyday.

[00:24:06] And again, I want to, I want to be really clear that I’m talking about this in the context of a very progressive life. You know, I have a financial safety net to do this work. I have the ability to work out of my own home. I don’t have kids so. Again, I have a lot of control over my life. And when I talk about these things, I’m always very clear to point out that privilege and that level of control that I’m able to have because I have health insurance through my husband who works a standard corporate job.

[00:24:38] Uh, and so I could say when I, when I was finally ready to start addressing my anxiety disorder, um, I w I was able to say I’m only going to see a health at every size therapist. I’m not going to see anybody who’s, who’s not aligned with health every size, because that was very important to me because I, I would be devastating if I’m like pouring out my heart and, and my therapist says, well, maybe if you lost some weight.

[00:25:03] Well, for me, for me, I couldn’t be, I couldn’t be vulnerable in, in a treatment space. And also have to do. Right bodies one Oh one. Um, I couldn’t, you know, I just can’t do that. And so again, because of my geographic location and the, because of my privilege, financial and, and time privilege and everything else, I was able to say, Nope, there are three.

[00:25:25] At the time, I knew of three health at every size therapist in the Seattle area. There’s, there are more. But at the time I knew of three and I said, which one of you is it going to be? Because I was able to do that. So being able to structure your life. Where you’re not constantly having to defend your body is, is a real privilege.

[00:25:44] And, and it’s something that everyone can work towards in some capacity, but the structure of your personal life is going to dictate a lot of what you have access to.

[00:25:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:53] Um, let’s talk about your, we, the, so my next question is about fat love. And, um, what is your. What is your fat

[00:26:03] Lindley Ashline: [00:26:03] love? As you may have noticed, I love telling stories.

[00:26:08] I love telling stories, and I love telling in my personal life, I love telling you long meandering stories with lots of context and lots of detail and Tanzania and, and coffee breaks and you know, give me the dance and I’ll keep the story going for a couple of days. Uh, and we don’t go, please.

[00:26:30] Occasionally my husband will set boundaries and say, okay, but what was the point?

[00:26:37] Because to me, all the context around something is very important. But I love telling stories, and as I have started, you know, as I started my photographic work, I already knew that I wanted to work with fat folks because that is. You know, again, again, at that point, that was 2015 I had already been in the the, the fat acceptance world for many years at that point.

[00:27:02] And so I knew that my audience was that folks, but I just knew that that was a market need that wasn’t being filled over the last four years as I have done this work. What I’m discovering is it’s of course the physical representation is important, but also these are stories that aren’t being told. Yes.

[00:27:23] And, and, and their stories, not theirs. Not just, you know, in the, here’s a body, that’s the type of body that’s not being shown, but the stories of the stories that get written in our skin. And as in a story I like to tell about stories is last year in 2019 I photographed a woman in salt Lake city. Uh, an older woman who had had open heart surgery and she has a large visible scar right down the center of her chest.

[00:27:53] Um, it is very, you know, you’re not gonna miss it and it’s, it’s the same color as the rest of her skin, but it’s, it’s a very visible scar. It’s probably two and a half, three inches long. And. I was very limited in the amount of time I was traveling through that day in my car and was on my way somewhere else.

[00:28:10] And so we had a very limited amount of time to work together, but just in the 45 minutes that we had. Uh, it was amazing to see the transition because she started out, um, being very protective of that area. She was perfectly willing to, because these were, um, these were, this was a fine art modeling session that she had, that we had arranged.

[00:28:32] And she was perfectly willing to, uh, to go down to her, her bra and panties. But she was very protective of that area. And. By the end of the session, by the end of the, just that 45 minutes, she was willing to allow me to photograph that and then she was willing to tell me her story. And I’m just more and more fascinated by the way that our story show up in our skin.

[00:28:55] You know, we have crow’s feet because we, the smiled, we have scars because things have happened to us. We have, you know, we have, I don’t know, I have freckles because I’m part Scottish, you know, all these that you’d think that we’re born with. And. You know, and, and even just my body size, I’m going to use my cell phone as living Pymble here.

[00:29:13] Um, my body size dictates the way I move through the world. It dictates my experience in the world and it shapes my story. And so even when I’m just photographing somebody in a specific body size, like that’s, it’s helping to tell their story and the way that their story is both influenced by and reflected in their skin.

[00:29:32] And. Telling me stories is just vital because we only, you know, with, with the media we have how many TV channels and how many, how many websites, media, websites, and how many, how many, everything, how many magazines, how many Instagrams are out there that are run by companies. Not people, not individuals. But the stories that we find on those are so limited and they only, we only talk about.

[00:30:02] Certain bodies. And so we don’t get the stories of, for example, women who gain weight in pregnancy and then the weight stays. Everything is about, Oh, look at the celebrity who lost all the baby weight in three and a half days. PS, Photoshop. Um, look at, you know, look, here are 15 ways to lose the baby weight.

[00:30:25] We don’t ha, we don’t have a story, a cultural story. We don’t have a cultural meme or Trobe or, or pathway for. This woman gained weight in pregnancy and it stayed. This woman, you know, this woman gained, she’d striped my stretch marks at puberty and they stayed. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very profit driven set of stories about any, here’s how to fix yourself.

[00:30:50] You loser, you, you ugly, you know, sell, fix yourself because that’s profitable. And so the stories I’m telling her exactly the opposite.

[00:30:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:59] So the cultural stories that we have are, if you get fat, there’s something wrong with you, like morally wrong. Right? And so all of those stories about bodies that are changing or have changed in the sort of

[00:31:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:31:13] cultural

[00:31:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:14] pro, you know, for-profit narrative are all that those bodies changed because there’s something morally wrong that you are morally obligated to fix or change, right?

[00:31:25] It’s not just that we don’t tell the other story. You know, we don’t tell anybody else’s stories. It’s that if we do tell them they are discounted and shamed and. You know, all of these different things. And so we never tell the stories of, you know, beautiful fat people, or, you know, something changed and it’s fine, you know, or this is how my body just came to be this way and isn’t, you know, isn’t this kind of an amazing story?

[00:31:50] We just don’t tell that. So I’m super like, I’m super into your work and the telling of the visual, telling your stories. Um, especially.

[00:32:01] Lindley Ashline: [00:32:01] Yeah. Thank you. And, and even, uh, of course, when I work with clients in my, in my portrait and boudoir photography, you know, we’re telling very personal stories. And of course, not all of those make it to the internet because, you know, so when someone comes in as a private client for our portrait boudoir work, um, they get to dictate what level of privacy they want their photos to have.

[00:32:21] So some people want this story shared and some people are doing that. You know, for a partner or for themselves, and you know, they’re keeping those stories close help, which of course is completely fine. But even with the stock photos, when I started doing stock photos, and if anybody’s not familiar with stock photos, those are commercial use photos.

[00:32:39] Those are, most companies aren’t big enough to have the budget to just hire a photographer and do their own and just create their own photos for a particular. Thing. Like if you see a photo in advertising of maybe a woman who was eating the salad and laughing. Um, to use like the most cliche stock photo ever.

[00:32:58] Um, like, that company usually isn’t, you know, they didn’t go, like hire a lady to laugh and eat salad and a photographer that, that’s a stock photo. Um, and there are many, many stock photo websites out there. Some of them are very large, like  stock or Getty. Uh, and then all the way down to little Indy. Indie powerhouses like me.

[00:33:18] So, so when I started creating stock photos, I was just thinking about it in terms of, uh, an income stream for my business in the sense that nobody else was creating stock photos, a fat people, literally nobody, nobody on the planet was creating stock photos of that people. That’s how little that story was being told.

[00:33:39] And that’s, that’s part of what year was that? That was 2016. Nobody.

[00:33:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:44] So that was just four years ago,

[00:33:47] Lindley Ashline: [00:33:47] and now it’s me and one one other organizations. That’s it.

[00:33:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:53] So I just want to notice that in 2020 we’ve had stock photos of fat people for four years. Right. And people have been using stock photos for, I don’t know.

[00:34:05] Dozens and dozens of years. Right. Like they’re just super, super standard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that is, that’s huge, right? Just that we like. I use your stock photos, I’m on my website and you know, unless they’re, unless they’re photos of me, um, I use stock photos, right, of like, you know, people in groups or whatever.

[00:34:28] Yeah. Except I managed to do one photo shoot with someone who came in and photographed me at a team meeting. So we have a couple of those that are like really good. And then mostly it’s, you know, it’s tacos cause that’s what. You know, they’re well lit and they’re beautiful and they have the right colors.

[00:34:45] And like I was just kind of the standard what everybody uses on their, on their website. But you know, for a long time I’ve been very dissatisfied. When I first put my website up and I don’t even know more than 10 years ago, I was like. I, you know, I paid for all of my sock photos, but I was like, this is really unsatisfying.

[00:35:04] So I use a lot of sunflowers.

[00:35:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:35:09] People tell me that they, that they have done, because particularly when you are working specifically, you know, partner, all of your target audience is, is fat folks. And that’s who you specialize in working with whatever your business is. And then there aren’t any representative photos. And your choices are people whose bodies don’t reflect.

[00:35:26] Your market or a Greenfield. And so you see on on on health at every size therapist websites, you see a lot of like sunsets and that’s pretty easy. That’s nice too. Don’t get me wrong, but it’s like just because there have been so few options.

[00:35:43] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:43] Yeah, lady bugs. I was like some flowers

[00:35:46] Lindley Ashline: [00:35:46] lady. I mean, I’m a nature photographer as well.

[00:35:50] I can appreciate some lady bugs.

[00:35:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:54] They’re beautiful, right? But they’re not fat bodies doing it. You know? There’s no fat bodies in lady bags and sunsets. Right.

[00:36:03] Lindley Ashline: [00:36:03] Yeah. And so telling, being able to, yeah. So when I started, it was sort of a market, you know, here’s the market need that needs to be filled. This is something I can do really well.

[00:36:13] Great. But then it eventually became clear that the, it’s not just photos of people, it’s adding stories to our cultural narratives. It’s expanding. When I was thinking about becoming a photographer. Um, I, I’ve been a nature photographer for, I don’t know, 15 years, many, many years. Uh, but when I started thinking about photography as a career, it took me, I dunno, 10 years before I was able to able to really seriously consider it because I had never seen a fat photographer.

[00:36:41] I had never met one, never even heard of one. And now there are many out there, uh, that I now know through the magic of the internet. But at the time, I was like, I can’t be a fat photographer who would hire one the who would want a fab photographer, their wedding, et cetera. And so when I’m producing these stock photos, somebody who has never seen a fat female weightlifter before, someone who has never seen a woman doing yoga, who is missing a limb.

[00:37:10] Who has a limb difference? Someone who has never seen a young black man like them. Do any yoga pose? Someone who, and most of the people I do I work with are fat folks. But, but the more, the more people I can get who are outside mainstream beauty standards, the better. So I have, you know, I have a list of lots of different types of folks who model for me.

[00:37:30] Um, but somebody who’s never seen a fat photographer. Look now, you know one, you too. You too can do this. You know? Just expanding the stories that we’re able to tell that that exists in some media format for us to tell is what’s really satisfying to me these days.

[00:37:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:53] Yeah. Because if you can imagine it, you can, you can at least attempt it.

[00:37:58] Right, right. But he can’t imagine it right then. Then. You can’t, you can’t do it right. It just does not. It’s not possible for you because it doesn’t enter your realm of possibilities. Right. And so I think telling all these stories for, you know, every, for everyone, but especially all the marginalized groups, I think it’s really important that we have, you know, more black folks.

[00:38:19] Represented everywhere. Right. Um, more folks with natural hair, more fat people, more disabled people, more people in wheelchairs, more, you know, like all of these things so that people get to know and see and understand. These are just normal. These are also normal regular bodies.

[00:38:36] Lindley Ashline: [00:38:36] Right?

[00:38:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:36] Right. These are bodies are totally

[00:38:38] Lindley Ashline: [00:38:38] normal.

[00:38:39] Yeah. And of course, you know, of course it’s important that that people who the body has happened to be closer to you cultural. Standards of beauty or attractiveness. Of course, it’s important that those stories get told too, but right now, most of those stories, most of the stories that are being told are closer to those stories

[00:38:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:57] or are those stories right?

[00:38:58] I mean, that’s the closer you are to the center, the more your stories are stories that look like you get told. And so it is important to shift and recenter our culture, you know, and have more normal bodies and normal stories in.

[00:39:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:39:13] People will be able

[00:39:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:14] to share what’s going on. Cause the more like, I like to think of it in terms of we’re built for connection and all of the centering on one kind of body or one kind of thing disconnects us from the truth of who we are.

[00:39:27] Lindley Ashline: [00:39:27] And it disconnects us from being able to see, to come back to what we were talking about earlier about seeing bodies. It disconnects us from being able to see that I once had an office job a number of years ago where I happened to be in the department that I was in a marketing department. I happen to be.

[00:39:43] A significantly larger than everyone else there. And I was having a conversation one day with someone who, uh, I think I had casually mentioned that I need as a new dress pants or something. And she had directed me to a store that. Didn’t even remotely carry my size, and it was well-intended, I wasn’t mad at her or anything.

[00:40:02] I just bought, I also, I was a baby fat activist at that point, and I kind of wanted to make a, a gentle point about it. And so I did. And rather than just saying, Oh, thanks, I’ll go over there and check it out. I said, Oh, you know, they don’t carry my size. And she was genuinely shocked. Um, because, and part of that is the way that I carry my weight.

[00:40:21] I also have some privilege in that, and that I am a pair of shape that, uh, appears. My understanding is that it appears a little smaller than it is. So there’s also, there’s also that I also, I also have a shape that, um, that many of the mainstream plus size clothing stores do, um, theater too. So it means that in general, and by many, I mean, Torrid.

[00:40:45] So most of my things for these days, but toward habit tore it happens to one of their fit models. Must be. Pretty similar to mine. So the, the, the point is that being able to buy clothing that makes you look smaller, even if you’re not doing it on purpose, is also a privilege. So point B, point B, you see about my stories.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:07] The point is that, uh, she was genuinely shocked when I told her my Clinton’s size and where it started going off the rails is that then she didn’t believe me. Yeah. I mean, it was a very polite disbelief, but she literally did not believe me. When I said 26 28 I ended up turning around and Pauline the tag out from my pants that I was wearing that day and like forcing her to look at the tag because I’m like, no, really, this is, and she was genuinely shocked because she didn’t have a cultural narrative.

[00:41:34] This isn’t nothing to do with her as a person. Very nice person, but she didn’t have a cultural narrative for what a size 26 28 look like, or that OSI, somebody who wears that size could be working next to her in office. Like, it just wasn’t, it wasn’t a story that she knew how to, um, or that she had available to her.

[00:41:52] And so every time, you know, and I, I talk about this work that I do, and this is, you know, other than my little bit of corporate part time work that I do, this is my full time. This is what I do. And it’s easy to think, well, if I don’t, you know, if I can’t do this full time, if I can’t. If I’m not a photographer or I’m not a writer or I’m not a journalist, I’m not a podcaster, like, what am I supposed to do?

[00:42:17] Like there’s nothing useful that I can do for body acceptance. Every fat person who just lives their life. And does what they’re able to in their lives to, uh, to set boundaries around diet, talk in their space, and to raise their kids. As someone who’s not a parent. Parents, your role is vital. It’s vital.

[00:42:41] You are literally raising a generation of people who can be like, screwed agriculture. We’re done. You know, you, you have the power. You have the power to put WeightWatchers out of business. You do and  and every time you teach your kids that fat is not a bad word. Every time you don’t go to a weight Watchers meeting, every time you tell your uncle that he, that you’re setting a boundary and he’s no longer allowed to come in on your way to Thanksgiving every time you show up and participate in your own life.

[00:43:16] Unapologetically. You’re doing the thing, you’re making the difference. And in the aggregate you have at least as much power as I do to change the cultural conversation. So don’t ever feel like you’re powerless, because even if you’re not doing any of those activism things I just talked about, even if you’re just showing up, you’re still showing up and in somebody else’s life you’re creating that story.

[00:43:41] Yes,

[00:43:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:42] that’s right. Just by existing and refusing to hide yourself in your body and your being this, it makes a difference. And you know, right now, pho fat positivity is, I don’t know if I want to use the word trending, but like it’s, you know, we’re in this place where it’s, it’s getting bigger and bigger. So it’s great to see.

[00:44:02] So just showing up makes a difference because this is something that people are starting to look at and, and think about and talk about. Um, more. More

[00:44:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:44:09] intelligently,

[00:44:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:10] like with more analysis, I think, than we ever have. And with more support towards fat bodies and other kinds of bodies. So, um. Yeah. Thank you so much for showing up here.

[00:44:22] This has been great. Do you have any, um, last words for our, our

[00:44:28] Lindley Ashline: [00:44:28] listeners? I do. Actually. I want to talk about Facebook activism now that now that we’re talking about things you can do in your own life, because there’s a lot of scorn, I think that we direct towards maybe armchair activism or. Oh, well, you’re sharing, you’re sharing things on Facebook, but what else are you doing?

[00:44:43] And that’s an important point. Don’t get me wrong, but I also want to talk about the power that sharing things on Facebook hats and things, Jerry and on Instagram, and you know, it’s, if you’re a business owner, buying one. Fat song photo and putting it on your website, that kind of sort of semi-active activism, I guess I would call it, where you’re sharing things, but maybe it’s not something that you have created or written and, and you’re doing that, you know, in your personal life.

[00:45:10] It can be really hard. And I want to respect that. Uh, for me, I’ve been. Creating controversy, all my social feeds for so long now by talking about anti diet concepts that I’m kind of used to people being mad at me at this point. But taking that first step it DePaul hard, you know, and say, I mean, even when it’s, even when it’s something as relatively non-controversial as just maybe there’s a meme that you’ve found, it’s like a, you know, just, and maybe it just says love your body and a beautiful font, and then maybe it has like a small fat.

[00:45:46] You know, white woman on it, that is, that is like cradling her, her tiny belly roll or something. You know this like the mildest body positive content you can get depending on where you have been in your life. Sharing that can be really scary and really hard. And I don’t, I want to, I want to sort of tip my hat to everyone who has taken that stuff because it can be really scary to say, okay, but what if my aunt.

[00:46:12] I dunno. Sorry. To everyone who’s named June, what if my hand shoot, what if my aunt June comes in, swoops in like she does everything skipping and yelled at me about how I’m going to die of the diabetes I don’t actually have because of my fat. What if? What if this is another place, you know, for people to brow beat me?

[00:46:29] What if this is another, you know what’s going to happen if I post this? That is hard and scary and it makes a difference. When I started, you know, I’ve talked about how when I started sharing things, I did start very, very, very gently. Uh, about a year before I started posting half naked VAT, ladies and I started posting deliberately posting body positive things on my timeline on Facebook, and I didn’t get as much pushback as I expected.

[00:46:55] Um, I did get quite a few people going, Oh, that’s nice. You know, that’s great. And you know, and people did self-select in or out, depending on whether they wanted to continue seeing that. But you’re making a difference. When I had been posting a naked fat ladies for about a year, uh, a cousin of mine who is quite a bit older than I am, and who, I don’t.

[00:47:14] I have never gotten to know as well as I would actually like to, but she messaged me, and this is somebody that I had not assumed would be into what I was doing, and she messaged me and she said, you’ve made a fundamental difference in my life. And she wasn’t necessarily engaging with things publicly, possibly because she was afraid that liking a bunch of my stuff on Facebook was going to cause problems for her.

[00:47:37] I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know her, but, but people do come to me. I’ve had relatives, I’ve had acquaintances and friends come to me privately. And, B, you have changed my life. Just. From sharing things on Facebook and they aren’t. There aren’t always the people who engage with me publicly. They are always the people who were like commenting and be like, yeah, you know, sometimes, sometimes they’re just quietly listening, but people, when you take any kind of stand, even if, if it’s the smallest possible fan, people are looking and listening and you know, there may be some scorn in the activism community about, you know, Facebook activism.

[00:48:14] But I really think it’s one of the most important things that you can do, but typically, if you pill feel powerless to do anything else, if you can share the one thing that has affected you most that day, maybe this podcast,

[00:48:30] maybe this podcast, then uh, then you are also doing the work. This is your official permission to do that. And this is your official notice that you weren’t doing the work of activism and that you’re doing good work. Just

[00:48:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:45] show up and it can be a way, I mean, it’s great for other people, but it’s also a great way to claim your own power and to take a stand and hold your own space about what’s important to

[00:48:56] Lindley Ashline: [00:48:56] you.

[00:48:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:57] Yeah. You know? Yeah. If you got to start somewhere, start here, podcasts, start with whatever, you know, whatever it feels like it’s really gonna work for you. Because it is also true that if you start somewhere. It’s a place to start it and it can grow from there. You can do more as you feel more empowered, as you understand that things that you’re able to have effect in the world and you can, you know, you can make a difference.

[00:49:25] And you do. And you know, and we all make a difference. You know, we all touch people’s lives, so it’s definitely an opportunity to touch lives. Thank you so much. So do you want to tell people again where they can find you?

[00:49:37] Lindley Ashline: [00:49:37] Yes, my good. My name is Lindley Ashline and because that is both hard to pronounce and spell.

[00:49:43] And remember I chose a website domain that is much easier to remember. So you can always find me@bodyliberationphotos.com. And the thing that I’m most excited about sharing with you right now is the body liberation guy, which was mentioned earlier. That is my weekly email newsletter, and it’s a really great newsletter.

[00:50:02] I promise. So many times we here sign up for my newsletter and we go, Oh, but this is Gary. I guarantee you this will be the most useful newsletter that you will sign up for this year. In whatever year you hear this podcast cause I’m that proud of it. And usually I’m not a, I’m not a big sales person in my, in my, in my work.

[00:50:23] So that’s how proud I am. Like, I stand behind this, um, every week it has some kind of personal thought from me on body liberation and it has, uh, it has a set of resources that are super easy to access and to go back and find, uh, in the last couple of weeks I have talked about how to find a doctor who is aligned with all their resize.

[00:50:41] Uh, I’ve talked about what is intuitive eating. Um, and these are, these are super quick resource guides. Um, actually this past week I did a, a very quick guide to the word fat, uh, about why people have chosen to reclaim that, what it means, what it means to reclaim that, about, about the size categories that I talked about earlier, small, fat, large fat.

[00:51:04] How do I tell what I am? Uh, and these are, like I said, super quick. List of resources that take, if you click through to every single thing, it might take you half an hour. And, uh, and yeah, I’m, I’m really, I’m really proud of what I’ve created that I’m creating. And so, uh, so if you’re going to, if you’re going to look up anything at all, go to body liberation photos.com and head over to body liberation guide is at the top of the page with the rest of the links.

[00:51:28] Uh, my Instagram is  body liberation with Lindley. And again, this is all linked off the website. I’m not a big Twitter

[00:51:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:36] person in the show notes, you’ll find that in the show notes as well.

[00:51:39] Lindley Ashline: [00:51:39] I’m not a big Twitter person, so I don’t tend to do a whole lot there. But you’re welcome to follow me at Lindley Ashline and my Facebook page is body liberation with Lindley Ashline.

[00:51:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:49] And you’re still doing the body liberation boxes or the body

[00:51:52] Lindley Ashline: [00:51:52] positive. That is the body love box. And I can’t believe that I,

[00:51:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:58] I love them. So I have bought a couple of them. Um, I’m not a big subscription person and I’m kind of, my. My sweetheart is a minimalist. So I rarely bring physical objects in the house unless I have to.

[00:52:10] But I bought a couple of them. One of them was a mermaid, one that I got for my sister, and she loved it. I actually, I opened it and took a couple of things out of it, and then I gave the rest of the thing there was like, perfect. I was like, Oh, there’s some things for her. And sometimes for me, um, and I bought and I’ve got the unicorn went.

[00:52:26] I was like, Oh, these are so good. So if you’re like. If you want more body positive body love, things like physical objects, um, you can have, you know, there’s like stickers and there was a, um,

[00:52:40] Lindley Ashline: [00:52:40] like a mermaid

[00:52:41] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:52:41] makeup brush and one and like a little, um, like a tea cozy and, um, Oh kinds of stuff. And, um, I, I love them.

[00:52:50] I think they’re fantastic. So I definitely recommend, um, checking them out. And of course, I love the stock photos, like I use them. You know, you can see them all over my website. Um, and yeah, Lindley is great. I really appreciate you coming here and hanging out with us and you’ll get all the information in the show notes, um, about where to find her.

[00:53:11] Thank you so much for being with us.

[00:53:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:53:13] Thanks for having me. Thanks for being had

[00:53:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:22] everybody. We’ll see you next time. This has been fat girl finds love a podcast about that. Love that sex and fat relationship. I’m your host, Brianna Kavanaugh. Thank you so much for listening. Please make sure to subscribe, like review and subscribe to my podcast, especially hit that subscribe button wherever you are, wherever you listen to podcasts, if you’d like.

[00:53:44] Stay connected and get updates when new episodes go live. When fat girl finds love does classes, giveaways, and special ed, please sign up to get emails and more at  dot com you could also find fat girl finds love on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you so much and see you next time on fat girl. Find blood.


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EP 01 – Fat Sex-cation with Matie Fricker LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

EP 01 – Fat Sex-cation with Matie Fricker LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

Fat Sex-cation with Matie Fricker LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

 The Fat Sex Series!

This is a really fun episode with Matie Fricker of Self Serve Toys! It was recorded while we were at Desire Riviera Maya – a swinger resort with a group called the Swingset Takes Desire!  We get deep in it and talk about so many sweet and sexy things including having a Fat Kid Crew.


Self-Serve Toys was kind enough to give us a promo code! Enter Fatgirlfindslove

and listeners get 20% off!

Thank you Matie and Self Serve Toys!!

Show notes: Fat Sex Series! Fat Sex-cation with Matie Fricker Interview at Desire

Sex-cation interview with Matie! This is a really fun episode with Matie Fricker of Self Serve Toys! It was recorded while we were at Desire Riviera Maya – a swinger resort. We were there on a takeover of the resort with The Swingset Takes Desire. We get deep in it and talk about so may sweet and sexy things.


Self-Serve Toys was kind enough to give us a promo code: Fatgirlfindslove 

and listeners will get 20% off! 


Matie Fricker is a smut peddling sweetheart with a deep love for the odd and tender. She owns Albuquerque’s best sex shop, Self Serve Toys. Self Serve is a shiny bubble of love and safety for those seeking pleasure and joy in their lives. One of her proudest accomplishments was causing Rush Limbaugh to say “female orgasm” on-air multiple times. Matie has been awarded the 2008 Tough Cookie Award from the National Association for Women Business Owners, Best Sexy Shop in ABQ’s Alibi Weekly Newspaper for 13 years and Albuquerque Pride’s Outstanding Retail Store Award. http://selfservetoys.com


Here’s the highlights!

On finding her fat identity:

  • Overcoming child sexual abuse
  • Coming out as queer
  • Touching a girl’s hand for the first time
  • Learning to feel hunger for sex and eat again
  • “I’m so sure that you’re wrong that you’re body is wrong. I am 100% confident that you’re wrong about hating your body” Matie Fricker
  • Virgie Tovar’s “You Have the Right to Remain Fat” 
  • “We deserve to be treated well” – Briana Cavanaugh
  • The tension of “the good fatty role” v the “good activist role”
  • Food is not poison.
  • My relationship with my body has to be a practice. And my relationship with food has to be a practice.
  • I love your feelings
  • Secrets and being healthy or unhealthy
  • Resource: The Body is Not An Apology by Sona Renee Taylor 
  • Not having to earn love.

About Fat SEX!

  • “Emergent Strategy: Shaping Change, Changing Worlds” by adrienne maree brown
  • “Pleasure Activism” also by adrienne maree brown
  • Standing up to a fat fetishist at sex party
  • Matie: I want somebody to tell me that I ****ing love my fat ***** and they love my rolls. And they love how they love how heavy I am. They love how things feel. They love, they want to, they want to **** me until I juggle… but respectfully.
  • And I **** feminists who won’t say things like that.
  • Care about ****ing fat people. Touch us and listen to us.
  • Sex Out Loud podcast with Tristan Taormino http://tristantaormino.com/sex-out-loud/about/
  • All bodies are good bodies, deserving of love, exactly as they are.
  • This is what my body looks like when it’s not aroused and you have to add arousal.
  • It was so cool to use my body to teach.
  • It was so cool to teach the whole time I was having an orgasm!
  • We help each other feel safe.
  • “Curvy Girl Sex” by Elle Chase: 
  • Matie is awesome!
  • You can find Matie at https://www.selfservetoys.com/



Desire – Matie Fricker – Fat Series – Fat sex-cation. Sex and fat care podcast 11-7-19

Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:00] [00:00:00] so.  today we’re doing a guest interview, um, on guests interview days. We get to learn from folks, uh, doing fat, positive or fat, positive adjacent work or fat sex positive.

[00:00:13] Um, as a reminder, we don’t bleep out any cuss words or swear words. We don’t edit for explicit material. So this is your warning that this interview may contain adult material and listener discretion is advised. That’s my warning for you all today. So we’re introducing, we’re talking to Matie and mateys get to introduce  herself.

[00:00:33]Matie Fricker: [00:00:33]

[00:00:33] my name is Maddie. Um, I, my pronouns are she, her on a sex educator by trade. I own a feminist sex shop in Albuquerque, New Mexico and self serve toys. And, um, and I am, uh, I am a fat. Cisgendered woman, white, uh, predominantly able bodied with some invisible chronic pain illnesses.

[00:00:55] And,  I’m a Dyke. I’m an entrepreneur. Uh, I’m a lover. I’m a [00:01:00] fighter. Um, um, did I say I was white? Yeah. Um, cause that, that is something, you know, I come from settler colonialism.  I live in New Mexico, and that’s a very relevant part of my identity.  and, uh, and I’m so excited to be here.

[00:01:14] So thank you so much for having me.

[00:01:17] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:17] Thanks for being had.

[00:01:18] Matie Fricker: [00:01:18] Yeah, I was, you know, I’m a desire people or had quite a bit

[00:01:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:23] and we liked that about this place. So this is again, another, I think this is the third one in the series of we’re at desire, we’re at a sex. Vacation, um, you know, in, uh, what is this called?

[00:01:38] Matie Fricker: [00:01:38] A takeover? A takeover by the swings that takes desire. And, um, we’re talking about fat sex. So first we’re going to talk about, um, how you came to have fat identity or fat positive identity.

[00:01:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I, I was raised in Southern California, um, to really what part? [00:02:00] Um, LA, so, yeah. Yep.

[00:02:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:01] I grew up in Carson and then the homesick. Orange County.

[00:02:05] Matie Fricker: [00:02:05] Yup. I was, I was born in Bakersfield, but I was raised like, I want some, I was five. Uh, we moved to Huntington beach, Costa Mesa, Santa Ana, an orange County. Orange County is tilting and changing, thankfully, but it’s a, it’s a very segregated place.

[00:02:21] There’s a lot of class politics. Yeah. And, um, the city adjacent to mine has the highest per capita of plastic surgery of anywhere in the world. Um, Newport beach. Did you know that? I figured that out, you know, growing up, um, and so, and, and it makes sense and I was fine and, and I was, I’ve always been fat.

[00:02:41] I was a fat kid. I come from fat. Family. Fat is something that my body always, always has been. And, and returns to, and, and I, um, in that community, uh, really, really internalized a lot of fat, [00:03:00] hatred and,  and a lot of it is for me really, you know, readily related to internalize misogyny, like masogyny and,  of of, there is a, there’s a way for women to be successful and to have, and to have the bodies that they’re supposed to have.

[00:03:15] Um, you know, my parents, uh, felt bad about their bodies but hid their bodies. And at the same time, my mom was also like, naked in the house. So there was, yeah. Yeah. My mom, my mom really tried and still had challenges and, and, um,

[00:03:32]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:32] I think that’s, that’s, I feel like that’s kind of what we’re striving for is like, it’s okay to have challenges and like keep, keep showing up, keep being naked.

[00:03:42] Keep. Working on loving your body,

[00:03:45] Matie Fricker: [00:03:45] but I think it was I think that she was in a place of like, potentially like acceptance, um, and I, rather than like radical self love, um, and so, and so, uh, and, and I had a history of [00:04:00] childhood sexual abuse. And a lot of things came up. Everybody had a real hard time.

[00:04:04] Nobody knew how to handle it. Nobody knows how to handle childhood sexual abuse. It’s really common. Like most families have childhood sexual abuse. Most families never talk about it. So there are so many of us who are survivors. And so as an adolescent , when, you know, all of these things, a variety of also things deaths in the family, things, things that were going on happened, it’s a lot.

[00:04:25] There was a lot, there’s a lot, a lot for an 11 year old too.  and, and there are a lot of things. And I was seeking control and I was taking control when I couldn’t control my environment. And, um,

[00:04:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:38] and it’s normal,

[00:04:39] Matie Fricker: [00:04:39] totally normal

[00:04:40]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:40] when all of these traumas and things happen, and that’s what kids want to do.

[00:04:43] They need to find some stability. And yet fighting controllers. Completely normal.

[00:04:48]Matie Fricker: [00:04:48] I was doing everything. Everything that I’d been taught how to do when I was 11. Um, my aunt put me on my first diet. Hmm,

[00:04:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:57] I’m so sorry.

[00:04:58]Matie Fricker: [00:04:58] It’s all right. There [00:05:00] was a part of it, you know? Um, and then, and my mom used to say, it’s real simple.

[00:05:06] Stop eating. And so I did, and, and I, I was anorexic all through high school, hated my body, was working through  the sexual abuse was working to get to a place of, um, like if I can control everything around me. Then I can be safe and I can make things safe and secure for me. And it really that my boss and and a ****ty spoiler.

[00:05:34] I’m also, everyone treated me better, like it wasn’t like

[00:05:41] when you were dieting?

[00:05:42] Oh yeah. No, I wasn’t dieting. I was starving myself. I was anorexic, anorexia nervosa. Classic. But I was still fat enough that no one noticed. Um,

[00:05:51]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:51] I had as a real, that’s a real problem. I’m really glad it’s starting to come out more, but like fat people.

[00:05:57] Yeah. And have an anorexia and [00:06:00] because they’re fat. Yeah. It’s, it can’t possibly be a conversation. They’re just too fat to have anorexia.

[00:06:06] Matie Fricker: [00:06:06] And I was, I was in color guard was like my, like lifeline. And I had to wear Lycra in front of the school at pep rallies. Like there was a lot of things that, a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure, and um, and my parents were, were not able to care for themselves and or care for us.

[00:06:25] And so everyone was doing their best. That’s by the way, 20 years of therapy. Everyone was doing their best. Yeah. Um, but I had like lines on my nails from when I stopped eating and my doctors said, Oh my God, I’m so glad you’re finally taking care of yourself. You know, to have a 15 year old child

[00:06:41] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:06:41] And that’s terrible.

[00:06:42] It’s terrible and dangerous. Dangerous and unhealthy and unethical. I think we would say now that like don’t encourage people, any people, but certainly young girl to have. Eating disorders.

[00:06:54] Matie Fricker: [00:06:54] Yeah. And at the same time, I really feel like I want to tell people who, [00:07:00] who,  maybe are, are in healthcare or,  are, um, have a body that is considered normative that like the, like, uh, the like , they are privileged.

[00:07:13] Like, I was more privileged in that space. And it was, it was. A, a smart, logical, unhealthy thing for a child to do because I was trying to be successful and the world told me I was. So

[00:07:27] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:07:27] that’s right. By the size of your body and my how intently you’re dieting, right? There’s a, there’s a good fatty sort of model of like 100% if you’re fat, at least you can die at the very least that you can do for us thin people is diet and that’s terrible.

[00:07:42] Matie Fricker: [00:07:42] It’s **** off. **** off everyone. But it was those really, it was really bad. And  it wasn’t until I had my first girlfriend. So I came into queerness. Um, and it was a way it like blew everything open and it was, it was like I had to [00:08:00] reject, you know, because of my childhood sexual abuse.

[00:08:03] Uh, even if it was okay in my family for people to be gay, it was really challenging for everyone around. Around me for me to be gay because we had all this unresolved trauma, and if something had, if, if I was gay then, then somebody had hurt me in a way that made me hate men. And I was like, and I was like, or

[00:08:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:08:26] the narrative of just had the right partner, the right love, the right parents, the right upbringing, you wouldn’t be gay.

[00:08:33] Matie Fricker: [00:08:33] Well, or that it was so hard that, and it was a cousin. Um, it was so hard that under their care a child had hurt me and sexually abused me, and everyone knew about it too. So it was like, people knew about it.  so it was like, just cause there, there was medical stuff, so like everyone knew about it, but, but if I was perfect then, then [00:09:00] maybe he hadn’t hurt me that much that much.

[00:09:03] And because I’m a highly empathetic little creature, uh, I was trying to figure out, you know, how I was trying to present like I wasn’t hurting. And so be the right body, be the right girl, be the right kind of straight, and queerness blew that out of the water for me like it

[00:09:20] was, it was literally the first time I allowed myself to experience hunger because the first time a girl touched my hand.

[00:09:30] I felt in my body again. And I think I’ve been living in a disassociated state for most of my life, trying to make things right.

[00:09:39]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:09:39] And that’s very common with, so, especially sexual traumas. We dissociate ourselves. We don’t want to live in this space. Yeah. We’ve been so hard. Yeah.

[00:09:48] Matie Fricker: [00:09:48] Yeah. And so, and, and it gave me like this like feeling of, of I don’t care what anyone else thinks.

[00:09:56] I’m gonna do what’s right for me. And that’s what helped [00:10:00] me eat again. And being with women, uh, helped me like, like I was with all these incredible women. You know, I started out with one and then, you know how it goes.

[00:10:11]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:11] I know they’re just delicious

[00:10:13] Matie Fricker: [00:10:13] and they are, they are in there, but every time, the first time I felt beautiful, I was ****ing like the cool, the big Dyke, you know, on Castro.

[00:10:22] Like I worked at a gay lesbian bookstore and like the cool new Butch Dyke, uh, like. Had sex with me and I, then I went and I, we, you know, we had a great day and then we went to, we went to the place she was at and when she took off her clothes, she apologized.

[00:10:37] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:37] Oh no,

[00:10:38] Matie Fricker: [00:10:38] She apologized. Well, we, and so many of us do, like she apologized for the hair on her nipple.

[00:10:42] She apologize for the, for the way her belly set, she apologize. And I’m like, you’re like the hottest person I know. Like you hate your body. And then I was like in the middle of ****ing her. And I’m like. You hate your body and I am so you’re a stranger. I don’t know you. And it’s so easy for me to be [00:11:00] very sure that you’re wrong, that your body is wrong.

[00:11:03] I am 100% confident that your wrong about hating your body. And, and then I was like, Oh my God, I’m wrong about hating my body wrong. I’m wrong, I’m wrong. But if I can like see every girl on the planet is perfect, what am I doing to myself? And it was like this like. Like radical moment. Of of epiphany while I was ****ing this stranger that like the, like I am, I am at the very least, as beautiful as as I can be, and as, as, as we all are.

[00:11:37] And I could see it in every single person besides me. And I really feel like that if I didn’t have the term at the time, but that was my aha moment around self-compassion. And so.

[00:11:47]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:47] It’s beautiful. It’s totally bringing tears to my eyes.

[00:11:49] Matie Fricker: [00:11:49] Yeah, totally. Oh, cool. Right. And it’s like, it’s like that. So, so for me it’s, it’s all tied together.

[00:11:55] And so then when people are like, well, how did you, how did you get to a body positive [00:12:00] place?  it didn’t come from like daisies and sunshine, as you know. And it comes with complexity , and work still, they still have an eating disorder brain. I still have moments. I, I still have, I still have, uh, a critical negative voice in my head that says my body is not the right body.

[00:12:20] And, and for a while, a few years back,  I accidentally got on a diet and I called it a health plan.

[00:12:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:12:26] Um, yeah.

[00:12:26] Matie Fricker: [00:12:26] And then I read Virgi Twelvers. You have the right to remain fat. And I was like, Oh my God, I’ve been on a diet. And it was like

[00:12:33]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:12:33] the wellness diet health plan thing as like super insidious.

[00:12:36] Um, I only in the last like maybe six, eight months, finally, it was like, Oh my gosh. The naturapath I was seeing it was like had me on a diet. Like I was like, Oh, I thought I was eating well. But actually what I’m doing is kind of compulsively looking for vegetables for one thing. And I just realized this week when we went to the buffet restaurant

[00:12:56] how buffet restaurants for me are like trigger [00:13:00] my like, am I going to get enough? Am I, can I eat the right things? And also on the other side of like, Oh, there’s everything, I’m, I’m never gonna get enough. And so I should try all of the really delicious food. And so I feel like I walk away where like my body feels full, but like somehow my mind is like, you didn’t eat a real meal.

[00:13:20] And it’s like, it just does like this ****ing head trip on me where I’m like, Buffet like it’s just a landmine mind fieldl of like all of these like foods that I should eat or that I shouldn’t eat or that I want to eat or that I don’t want to eat or that like all of these things. And it’s like, it’s just a buffet, like, yeah, but also none of it is.

[00:13:39] Matie Fricker: [00:13:39] Yeah. I don’t, as soon as I started talking about the surgery, beauty, everyone shares, I have to start getting to like, like I’m like, I’m like, and you may not call it that or, but you know, it’s like this thing where nobody knows. How to eat in a way that they feel good about all the time. And I just want to be like, great, let’s [00:14:00] have that be the starting point.

[00:14:01] Like instead of like, I have this personal problem that’s a deficit and these this thing, really no, like no all in it. And like,

[00:14:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:10] and it’s normal that you listen to Christie Harrison’s food psych podcasts?

[00:14:13] Matie Fricker: [00:14:13] No.

[00:14:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:14] Oh my gosh. So she has, people tell their, their kind of food stories and how they like, where they started and their eating disorders stories and how they are.

[00:14:22] Have like come to be wherever it is. They are actually like, you know, I’m anti diet like nutritionists and all of this stuff, but what I really got is that. Like it’s super normal to have disordered eating sometimes, like the, the story that like you break up with your sweetheart and then you eat a pint of ice cream.

[00:14:40] Is that super normal?

[00:14:41] Matie Fricker: [00:14:41] Yeah

[00:14:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:42] we both are like, you should totally do this. And then we’re like, Oh my God, you’re not allowed to eat ice cream. Right. But like, sometimes eating a lot of food is a totally normal reaction to grief or whatever. But then we  heap shame on top of that. And then we’re like, you’re ****ed.

[00:14:55] No matter what you do,

[00:14:57] Matie Fricker: [00:14:57] you’re visibly fat.

[00:14:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:58] Yeah.

[00:14:59] Matie Fricker: [00:14:59] Like, [00:15:00] like I have people in my life who, who will, uh, who are really clear with me cause I’m a safe person to them that like, they’ll be like, Oh my God, I’m going to go do this. But you know, when I go into work, I only take like a tiny little bit of food so that they don’t think I’m a fat person eating  like, and they, and, and they confess it  and I’m like, yeah, cause you don’t want people to treat you ****ty.

[00:15:20]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:20] right.

[00:15:21]Matie Fricker: [00:15:21] Like you’re all, none of us are in a vacuum too. So, so we’re like, Oh, I feel so guilty about this thing I’m doing. And at the end. Same tie. We’re doing it because we want to be treated while it’s like,

[00:15:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:30] and we deserve to be treated well

[00:15:31] Matie Fricker: [00:15:31] and we deserve to be treated well. That’s the problem.

[00:15:34] That’s the problem.

[00:15:35]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:15:35] So it’s like a performative, performative eating disorder, like we have to like perform the good fatty role. And then, and

[00:15:43] Matie Fricker: [00:15:43] then, and then on the flip side, it also goes all the way to the other side where I’m, where in the moments where I’m like,  well, I need to perform the good activist role.

[00:15:52] And so, and so I’m anti diet culture and I’m anti talking about these things and I know, I know. That these things are toxic. [00:16:00] So then I just spiral out of my head when I’m having these thoughts. So I started just being really open about it and being like, what? What am I doing right now to try to be good to this body?

[00:16:15] Because I love this body and this body deserves nourishment. And I. And I am still learning how to do it, you know, which sometimes, like, like when I, so I did this eat, you know, health restrictive, like, you know, um,  pull 30, I did paleo did. And there were a lot of things about my like, health stuff that actually really, really were improved.

[00:16:35] And then, and then cease to, you know, um, and so, but I was like, this is the thing. And then it was like, I would eat like, oatmeal. And be like, this is poison. This is poison. This is poison. The food is not poison. Food is not poison. And so, and so I’m, I am now, I’m now literally like trying to do a different thing  and I’m like, I am, I’m going to, I’m going to confess, [00:17:00] like, like I’m going to confess, uh, for the first time in my life, I’m looking at calories.

[00:17:05] And, and, and, but I’m, I’m looking at them because my brain taught me everything is unhealthy.

[00:17:12] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:12] So everything is unhealthy. Do, you could have too much broccoli and it’s a terrible thing.

[00:17:17] Matie Fricker: [00:17:17] But like, but like, or any, well, and this, this like paleo way of looking at it is like, there’s like food is either helping you or hurting you.

[00:17:24] I would literally be like. Anything that I ate that was outside of that, my eating disorder brain would say, you are causing harm to your body. And so right now, right now I’m like, well, I’m going to just have a big container that, that, that is not. And I also, I can cause harm to my body too.

[00:17:43] I’m allowed to. And

[00:17:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:44] as your body, you can do anything you want

[00:17:46] Matie Fricker: [00:17:46] with there. I want to, and, and I like I there, there are things, I have a lot of chronic pain. I have a lot of health stuff in my family and there are things. That I’m trying to take apart and be like, well, what’s real? Cause none of the health stuff [00:18:00] I have doctors tell me is real, you know?

[00:18:01] So I’m trying to figure all of it out and it’s complicated. But the thing about him

[00:18:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:06] then you’re like, well, I can’t trust my doctors and I can’t trust diet culture and I can’t like who can I trust? Where’s the stable ground ? Well,

[00:18:14] Matie Fricker: [00:18:14] and

[00:18:14] for me, like it’s like, okay, if I can be like I’m, you know, and when I say counting calories, I’m like, there’s a lot on my list.

[00:18:21] There’s a lot. And I can go over and it’s ****ing fine  because that’s what I want to do. But it’s like there’s this a different pile that I know  I’m allowed and I’m making the choice and I’m doing it , it’s like if my body is gonna be, have this rigid awareness all the time, I at least want to make the rules.

[00:18:41] I want to make the rules. And then when those rules stop working for me, I want to make them again. And again and again until we figure it out. So that’s like my truth right now. And I’m fixing the

[00:18:50] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:50] ongoing process.

[00:18:51] Matie Fricker: [00:18:51] It’s an, and it’s like embarrassing to say it out loud to the internet because I feel like a bad fat activist.

[00:18:58] And I’m like, [00:19:00] and, and I think most of us do when we get there, feel like bad fat activists. And I just want to be like, so this is what’s going on with my body right now.

[00:19:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:09] Matie Fricker: [00:19:09] Oh, I feel so vulnerable.

[00:19:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:19:10] Yeah. Well, I think telling the truth is the most important thing. Right? And I think our relationships with our body are really ongoing.

[00:19:17] Right?  I’ve spent a lot of time doing work around money and I’ve actually been using my work around money or at, so yeah. But also the thing that I came to her about money is that it’s a practice, right? And so my relationship with my body has to be a practice. And my relationship with food has to be a practice.

[00:19:33] And what about practice is that sometimes it works and it’s great, and you have moments of Nirvana, and then a lot of the time you just gotta get up and do the laundry. Right. And like period out and, and there’s all the feelings. And one of the things that I wish everyone had was my, my, my sweetheart, who’s, who’s over there, but he’s silent again, very silent.

[00:19:55] Um, says to me when I’m like I have so many [00:20:00] feelings. And then he says, yeah. I love your feelings and I just want that for everyone. For someone, like when you’re having like the, I don’t know what to eat and I don’t know the **** is going on and it’s too much, too little, and I’m counting calories and I’m not, and I’m paleo and I’m Blaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, look, it’s just that.

[00:20:14] It’s going to be like, I love your feelings,

[00:20:17] Matie Fricker: [00:20:17] your feelings, your feelings, and Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. Well that, that was the thing is I started realizing, I was like, is, am I doing this in secret? That’s when it becomes, that’s when it becomes really unhealthy. For me. And, and so, so I’m just starting to be like, well, because I just was in a place where literally everything, I was having that moment of like everything is wrong.

[00:20:42] And when everything is wrong, I need to change a plan. Yeah. You know? Ugh.

[00:20:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:20:47] But it’s a trap that is the trap that’s like, it’s a trap.

[00:20:51] Matie Fricker: [00:20:51] And they, and, and everyone profits of on it, but us, you know, so, so I’m trying to figure it out. do right by me [00:21:00] and, and sounds amazing. Okay. But it’s hard.

[00:21:03] I think it’s hard for everybody. So, yeah. So

[00:21:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:06] I don’t think there’s anyone, especially any fat people out there being like, I got this. Like I totally got this covered. I at least I haven’t talked to any. Like if there are. Awesome. Let me know. I’d love to talk to you about it. I loved it.

[00:21:16] Matie Fricker: [00:21:16] Yeah. Let me know.

[00:21:17] Mattie@selfservetoys.com.

[00:21:19] That’s right.

[00:21:19] Let me know how you do it. But, um, I have, I do as part of my practice, I consume a lot of media , that tells my brain other things than what I read and see and feel and experience in the world. Like, like the negativity I do experience as a fat person is real and pressing and S and it is.

[00:21:39] Constant and chronic, and wears me down. Yeah.

[00:21:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:42] So are you consuming media. Are you talking about consuming media that’s really working for you?

[00:21:46] Matie Fricker: [00:21:46] Yes.

[00:21:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:47] So a name, anything?

[00:21:48] Matie Fricker: [00:21:48] Yeah, like I just listened to the body is not an apology. Oh yeah. Oh God. Oh God. Oh God. And I really, I really loved it because I was having this like, should I or shouldn’t I, or what should I do?

[00:22:00] [00:22:00] Or I’m, everything’s feeling bad. And it was really like church. It was, if you haven’t

[00:22:05] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:05] yes!,

[00:22:05] Matie Fricker: [00:22:05] if you haven’t read it, if you haven’t. You can listen to it on audio book audience. What I did out of all. Yeah, it was so good. It’s Sonia, Renee Taylor’s. Yeah. The body is not an apology. And it came out last year, a couple of years ago, I think it was 2018.

[00:22:17] I know, cause I, cause I looked at the printer, I was like, how is this, this book? So like, and we’ve been needing it for so long. And how has it affected so many people so quickly? Um, and it’s really i , it’s powerful. And, and I really loved the way that she took down acceptance. It’s, um, and, and just, uh, and, and body confidence, body confidence as a, um, you know, it’s body confidence is a, is a really, it requires a will, and it required you.

[00:22:52], we require body confidence to show up at the moment where we have at the least, and then we feel like failure.

[00:22:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:58] Yeah.

[00:22:59] Matie Fricker: [00:22:59] And I just, [00:23:00] that part just really resonated with me. And I talked with my, I, I just go to work and talk with my friends all the time about everything I’m reading and book blowing my mind.

[00:23:07] And one of the things that we talked about is the way that we love our family or the way that we love people is, is, um, like, like say we’re talking about our dad or something like that. Whether or not, whether or not, or if it’s someone dad’s hard, pick somebody else, but like she has a really good relationship with her dad, but she’s like, you know, whether or not my dad has a good day at work, whether or not he’s performing the way that he is supposed to, whether or not my dad, my dad, you know, is, is even like totally acting.

[00:23:36] Exactly right that day. I’m gonna love him. Right. My love for him is not gonna go away.

[00:23:41]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:23:41] It’s not conditional.

[00:23:42] Matie Fricker: [00:23:42] And that so much of my love for myself has been conditional in these ways of like, did I take good enough care of myself today? Did I, show up to work? Exactly right?

[00:23:52] Did I, did I. Uh, get enough sleep or, you know, the self care checklist of I earned my love that way. [00:24:00] Like, I am so over that right now. I am.

[00:24:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:04] Matie Fricker: [00:24:04] You know, so radical self love and compassion. I’m also reading emergence and strategy. Um. About the and I’ll send you the name of the author. I’m so sorry.

[00:24:14] I don’t, I don’t have it right now, but it’s called emergent strategy. And she also wrote pleasure activism and, um, and that’s next on the list. But it’s all about like the, like we make things hard and wheeze and that there’s some really powerful, lessons in nature and in and in community about the ways that we’re actually all in are interconnected.

[00:24:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:38] Emergent strategies. Adrian Marie Brown. Yeah. And yeah, I have the act of put the pleasure activism book.

[00:24:45] Matie Fricker: [00:24:45] Yeah, amazing. Yeah. I was like reading this and crying like that’s what I like to do. I like to read things in crack.

[00:24:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:49] I haven’t read this one yet, so

[00:24:51] Matie Fricker: [00:24:51] you’ll love it. You’ll love it. So, so I do that and then I follow a lot of fat positive.

[00:24:59] [00:25:00] hashtags on Instagram. You know, one of my favorite ones is hashtag take up space.

[00:25:04] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:04] Oh, I haven’t been watching.

[00:25:06] Matie Fricker: [00:25:06] It’s so good. It’s so good. And this morning there was like, if somebody pulled dancing with a giant unicorn, like a blowup unicorn of men between their legs, and someone said, you know, you take up too much space.

[00:25:17] And they’re like, Oh yeah,

[00:25:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:19] that’s right. That’s right. Oh, thank you.

[00:25:21] Matie Fricker: [00:25:21] And I think the act of taking up spaces revolutionary.

[00:25:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:24] Matie Fricker: [00:25:24] You know, and it’s also one that I, that I. Uh, constantly fear that my body and my voice and my energy is taking up too much space. And I’ve been told that a lot, so I hope I’m doing okay today.

[00:25:38] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:38] You’re done. You’re taking up the perfect amount of space. It’s also, you know, especially when we’ve been told we take up too much space, it’s important to re like reset, recenter ourselves and our own, like, this is my space. I get to tech, take up space. Um, and you know, there are ways that people can take up too much space, but like.

[00:25:56] You know, you get to take up space, right. And you get to take up as much [00:26:00] space as your body takes up, and you get to take up as much space as you know.

[00:26:03] Matie Fricker: [00:26:03] Yeah. Yeah. And there are certain spaces where I’m very clear about like trying to make my body as small as possible. And sometimes these days I’m, you know, I’m a middle aged cis-gendered white lady.

[00:26:13] Like the world’s a pretty safe place for me. So sometimes I actively push the amount of space on that I’m supposed to be taking. Like I let men hit me, like not hit, like if I’m walking down the street, I don’t move. I don’t back down. Like, um, I yelled at, I yelled at Aman, man in Starbucks the other day.

[00:26:31] because there was, there was a woman coming through with a cane and I stepped aside and then he just butted right in and I, and I was like, excuse me. it didn’t make that space for you. I made space for the woman with a cane you almost knocked over. And he was like, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry.”

[00:26:45], I love, I love, at this point, I want like sometimes engaging with people about the space they’re taking up and, and being really aware that like, I’m allowed to take some. And also, and also who. Who in this room has less space than me and how can I make [00:27:00] more room for them?

[00:27:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:01] Yeah, that’s fantastic.

[00:27:03] So I want to shift over to talking about second,

[00:27:05] Matie Fricker: [00:27:05] know how this happened because I will do an I for 15 minutes. I wear a desire and I’m like, I’m so sorry I have, I have a sex on the beach day kind of gang bang. I have to get to four.

[00:27:16] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:16] It’s a lot. It’s a lot. We tried to hurry up and talk about that, sex, cause

[00:27:20] Matie Fricker: [00:27:20] he know can, but this is like so classically me like.

[00:27:23] Upstairs. People were like, Oh, what happened with you last night in the hot tub? And I was like, Oh my God. I just had the best conversation with Bradford about, and

[00:27:31] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:31] Bradford’s very good

[00:27:32] Matie Fricker: [00:27:32] about our grandmas. So like, we’re just talking about our grandmas and, and religious tolerance and like, you know, but it was like so sweet and like, people are like, Ooh, what’d you do?

[00:27:42] And I’m like, Oh my God, I had the best conversation about our grandma’s in the hottub. So if you’re like, and you’re like, Oh my God, this sex vacations sounds really intense also know that there’s a lot of, a lot of just heart to heart too.

[00:27:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:56] Yeah. A lot of sweetness.

[00:27:58] Um, intimacy is [00:28:00] intimacy. And like, I think the, you know, there’s a lot of us that we really liked sex.

[00:28:04] And for me, sex is on a scale of intimacy and sex is great and I’m, you know, can do sex by itself or with, you know, all these different ways, but like, it’s not the only way for, at least for me, for us to be intimate. There’s lots and lots and lots of ways to do that.

[00:28:18] Matie Fricker: [00:28:18] And society. Society doesn’t value almost anything except for romantic pairings that lead to children like, like so.

[00:28:26] So I think it’s revolutionary to really value and cherish platonic love. Like my, my, the people I am absolutely closest to in the world. I call them my soul sisters. Uh, they live in different States. They’re my people. My plan is to grow old with them. If I get too And, and they, they’re, they’re my protonic intimacy, like loves, like, like forever and ever.

[00:28:49] when people, uh, hear, hear that, that sometimes they go, “Oh”, like, like as if I’m missing out and I’m like, Ooh, you know, who’s reliable? Uh, the women in my life who I’m not [00:29:00] ****ing like, you know,

[00:29:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:01] I’ve had my back for a really long time and who I have known for 25 years, like they still have my back through all of the people that I have sex with and all the relationships and all the changes and all that.

[00:29:09] Like. And of course, like they have my back, and of course, like, hi, of course I want them around and old with them. Like, you know, it’s like they’re the ones who I know, I already know, have my back.

[00:29:22] Matie Fricker: [00:29:22] Yeah.

[00:29:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:22] Right.

[00:29:23] Matie Fricker: [00:29:23] And then, and that, um, that it’s easy to love unconditionally. Yeah. And, and that, um, and that model for me, that I know that I can.

[00:29:33] You know, but I, but remember I have like romantic love of nesting and things like that. I want to have conditions. I feel just fine with that, but it’s good to know I can, you know? And that maybe. In the right situation. I can nest in an unconditional way, but I bet at this point, having some conditions works real well for me with park

[00:29:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:53] conditions.

[00:29:53] Boundaries, like, yeah,

[00:29:55] I mean it’s important.

[00:29:56] Matie Fricker: [00:29:56] Um, so yeah, intimacy, sex. Here we go.

[00:29:59]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:59] Yeah. Let’s talk about [00:30:00] sex.

[00:30:00] Matie Fricker: [00:30:00] Let’s talk about sex. What about it? I love sex using, I love sex. So one question is, how did you become sex positive?

[00:30:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:07] I assume you’re sex positive cause you’re here.

[00:30:09]Matie Fricker: [00:30:09] Yeah, and I own a feminist sex shop.

[00:30:11] And I think it is not an accident that almost every feminist sex shop is owned by a queer person.  and most are most like a bar, like pretty significant portion are owned by queer women.  and that I don’t think that’s an accident. I think that that people who, um, have had, as I had the moment of my desire and my body and my needs.

[00:30:38] Are valid and important, and I’m willing to do what it takes to, to get there. And I, you know, I lost family. I was gay, banished, like some **** went down, you know,  so, uh, listening to that hunger in my body and saying, you get to get fed was important and changed every thing.

[00:30:55]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:55] I love how the food and sex thing just comes right together. [00:31:00] The hungers of the body include food and they include  sex,

[00:31:03] and there’s a, like, especially room as associating, and we’ve been not able to live in our bodies like these hungers are, they’re real and they can be. So. Big, and then you nurse them and you feed yourself.

[00:31:15] And there’s like a, um, I dunno, there’s a transformation that happens when you’re, when, for me, at least, when I’m finally like, Oh, I can have it, I can nourish myself. I actually am valid. I am real. I exist. I am, I am. And I get to have my desires right.

[00:31:33] Matie Fricker: [00:31:33] And it gave me presence in my body and presence in my body gave me an awareness that my body has needs.

[00:31:41] And I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up prioritizing my needs. I wasn’t, that was not welcome. Or at the very least, it wasn’t prioritized. Everyone was doing their best, um, everyone’s  doing their  best, doing their best, and that’s all we can ever. And they still are terrible. Everyone is always doing their best.

[00:31:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:58] And the thing that I’ve [00:32:00] come to is everyone is always doing their best and it’s not always good enough.

[00:32:03] Matie Fricker: [00:32:03] Yeah. Right. Well, it doesn’t mean I want to **** everybody. That’s what I learned. So in terms of fat, sex, I think, I think that there’s,  a few different kinds of fat sex I’ve had and some of them have, and some of them have been, people are so invested in the ways that I make them feel, and so, and so they, they, uh, are hot for me despite my body.

[00:32:26] Um, and that, and that, you know, I’m just, I’m just so, I’ve such a great personality. I’m so, I, you know, I, I make them feel, yeah, I don’t ****. like that anymore, but, but, but when I was young and had very low self esteem and was just looking, looking for connection, um, that was a, that was a recurring thing.

[00:32:48] And,  that, my body became something that was navigated around, it became something that wasn’t, um,

[00:32:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:32:56] not center, not seen,

[00:32:58] Matie Fricker: [00:32:58] not centered on seen. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:00] [00:32:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:32:59] I’ve had, I used to have these connections where it was like, I’ve never had sex with a fat girl before.

[00:33:04] And like, but you’re so great. You’re so funny. You’re so kind. You’re so. I’m so, I’m willing to try it.

[00:33:10] Matie Fricker: [00:33:10] I’m willing to try it. Yeah. Great. Cool. I’m willing to not let you, uh, but, but, but, but I’ve done that. I’ve done that a lot. Yeah. And I, and I, and so, and so, and because my body is not  normative and because people have a, uh, although my body’s so , normal.

[00:33:31] Oh, my bad.

[00:33:31] Yes.

[00:33:32] It’s not the normative body that P the, the,

[00:33:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:35] the culturally centered body.

[00:33:36] Matie Fricker: [00:33:36] Yeah. Their culturally centered body. Because I’m like, my body is normal. Your body is normal. All of our bodies are normal. But the, the body that is seen as, which I think I’m like, so my brain is from, from, uh, the body’s not an apology.

[00:33:48] Like, you know, um, but because that body is not that, um, I find, I find that I have a lot of insecurity  about whether or not someone is [00:34:00] actually hot for my body.

[00:34:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:01] Yeah.

[00:34:02] Matie Fricker: [00:34:02] And then, um, then I am always suspect of it. Always. Yeah. And so,  then because I’m so suspect of it, I don’t want to ask.

[00:34:14] “Do you like my body?” Because I feel like the answer will be yes, but it might not be true. And I’ve been in longterm relationships and felt that, um, you know,

[00:34:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:23] read the difference. Like sometimes you can read it on people where they’re like, yes, of course, but you can see it in their eyes or in their face or in their demeanor that like.

[00:34:32] “By. Yes, of course.” They mean I’m supposed to right, but it’s not true for them. And then there it’s complicated. And then do you call it out? Like, and I don’t mean like call it culture, but do you just say, it doesn’t look like

[00:34:44] Matie Fricker: [00:34:44] feel like that?

[00:34:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:45] Yeah. And then it’s complicated and because your body’s already marginalized,  like how do you, you know, it’s like, how do you navigate the, like.

[00:34:53] What I actually want is someone to show up who just really wants my body

[00:34:56]Matie Fricker: [00:34:56] just really ****ing wants my body. But also, and not in a [00:35:00] creepy fetishizing way. Cause that’s the other thing that happens. But then my body becomes object and my body becomes, so that’s a like body as object body, as fetish body as like, I wanna feel your rolls.

[00:35:10] I want to S you know, I wanna I want, I. I am objectifying your body and not integrating your whole self. And that feels gross too. Um,

[00:35:21] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:21] because it is, if it’s not already a boundary violation. It is the kind of a homework from me or this signal of, of violation that like they see my body but not me.

[00:35:32] So when it comes down to sex or it comes down to what I want, they’re just not going to see me and not gonna listen to me. Not going to stop, not gonna, you know, like, so I don’t get to show up. Even if they think, you know, my belly is great or whatever, they still have to see all of me. And I think there’s a, like I’ve definitely.

[00:35:50] I have this the story, I don’t think I’ve told this on the podcast. I’m going to do an aside, which is, I was at a sex party. It’s probably been like 10 or more years ago, and I had sex with this [00:36:00] dude and, um, and it was, I think there was a threesome. It was me and him and another woman, and then a sex party a couple of months later, same dude, his partner comes up to me and he’s like, Oh, he totally wants to have sex with me   was actually the like.

[00:36:13] I was like, He did already, but he doesn’t remember because he wasn’t he, he doesn’t remember me. He just remembers ****ing a fat body and getting off on that. And I was like, that is super gross. And then, and then he continued to  come up to me or you know, his partner could lie and like to her, I was like, I’m don’t do that anymore.

[00:36:32] And to him, I was like, at some point I just finally was able to say to him, you did **** me and you don’t remember. I’m not doing it again. And then he finally like, got that. But I felt like I had to be really like people.

[00:36:46] Matie Fricker: [00:36:46] Most people can’t. So have you been like, it’s ****ing great that you could because, because that’s really.

[00:36:53] It you, your voice is powerful and whether you say it out loud or not, it’s there. And [00:37:00] it’s really cool when you can use your voice in those moments and like that, that is bad ass. And I’m so proud of you.

[00:37:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:06] Thank you.

[00:37:07] Matie Fricker: [00:37:07] Um, and like, and T. Like, cause what are you coming up against you to all of those things.

[00:37:13] And most people would, would as a normal trauma response would shut down and be quiet and freeze and be able to speak in that moment like, like it is a super common trauma response to freeze. And so, and so even like. Like in a, in that situation, it would be really common to just do it again and then be trapped in your head about all of it, you know?

[00:37:37] And so like, I’m really like, trauma responses are so cool and I think about them all the time and, and I’m like, that is bad ass that you fought.  because not everyone has that accessible to them. You know? And also like so ****ty that you had to, you shouldn’t have to fight to not be treated like a ****ing object by somebody who already ****ed you.

[00:37:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:57] Right.

[00:37:57] Matie Fricker: [00:37:57] Like I, it sounds like it wasn’t great [00:38:00] sex either.

[00:38:00]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:00] That’s what I was finding. The way that I was able to finally voice it, cause it took several, like coming up to you was to be like the sex wasn’t that good. Like you don’t remember because the sex wasn’t any good because you don’t actually like me.

[00:38:14] Yeah. And that was the, like my anger was, was able to over finally overcome the, like, what the **** bumped up?

[00:38:21] What the **** yeah, it was, I just, I think mean people have bad sex. Um, that’s a, that’s one of my core beliefs. I really think that people who are mean people are means that others are frequently mean people.

[00:38:34] Matie Fricker: [00:38:34] People have bad sex because these mean people are selfish. They, they center  themselves in, in any given situation. And when you do that, you are unable to be connected, which is the whole reason we’re here. And.

[00:38:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:49] Not just that they sit her themselves cause it’s important to, for us to center ourselves in our own space, but they center themselves over other people, over other people’s needs, over other people’s desires over seeing and connecting with [00:39:00] other people.

[00:39:01] Yeah. It’s creates a power, dynamic entitlement over, I

[00:39:05] Matie Fricker: [00:39:05] mean, people have bad sex. Um, but, uh, but then so then, so then the kind of sex I like to have is usually really connected sex, uh, that, and it could be like, hi, I just met you, but we. We really , like weren’t in it. And we’re here and we’re present.

[00:39:24] Um, but even in those situations, because there’s so much fat, negativity, particularly if somebody is not fat, uh, I feel, or especially with people who are like longterm partners, I will , give them permission to call me fat. To objectify my body to tell me I want somebody to tell me that I ****ing love my fat ***** and they love my rolls.

[00:39:47] And they love how they love how heavy I am. They love how things feel. They love, they want to, they want to **** me until I jiggle. Right? Like,

[00:39:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:54] Ooh, I

[00:39:54] like that,

[00:39:55] I want that.

[00:39:57] Matie Fricker: [00:39:57] And I date feminists who [00:40:00] won’t tell a woman that. And so, and so. I feel like there’s like this disconnect for people around like, it’s like, it’s like I want, you know, with a book, like when someone you love is kinky, I want, so when someone you **** is fact like a book for that because, because in the absence of positive re positive reinforcement and positive praise and positive connections with the abundance of negativity we hear every day.

[00:40:28] It’s no wonder that many of us, myself included, have self esteem. That’s stuff first like, and I want to like, there’s a difference. I chose that word intentionally, not low self esteem because we also are nuanced people and I have incredibly high self esteem and I have self esteem that’s suffers.

[00:40:50] And so when a lover, when a lover of. Like, ****s my pain away, you know,  and, [00:41:00] and tells me that and sees me and sees my fat. And cause I’ve had people who are like **** and *****, **** and *****, **** and *****, right?

[00:41:09] Like your ass as, as, and I’m like, could you just ****ing talk about like, like where most of my mass lives, which is directly in my belly, like my belly is where is the predominant feature of my body. And so if you **** me and only talk about my ***s, we have a problem.

[00:41:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:41:28] Yeah.

[00:41:29] Matie Fricker: [00:41:29] So that’s, that’s, you know, that’s some of my, and so those, I think, I mean, I might have more Clark, you know, classifications later, but like those are the ones I really liked.

[00:41:38] But I generally, I have to give permission for someone and I have to explicitly ask for it. And it bothers me. Because I’d like maybe my future dream lover, if you’re out there hot Butch polyamorous, a like fantasy, maybe you’re like a, you’re like a geologists or, you know, cause I just want to learn [00:42:00] about rocks or something.

[00:42:02] Um, maybe maybe study the paleontologist studies on the, I don’t ****ing care though. Hot Butch polyamory. Good enough. Ideally located in the Southwest.  only

[00:42:11] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:11] Albuquerque. If you’re out there,

[00:42:12] Matie Fricker: [00:42:12] Albuquerque, if you’re out there, please. Uh, but my ideal, like my dream would be somebody who said, who said, you know what?

[00:42:21] Like, I want to check in about this because I don’t want to like ever make you feel uncomfortable. And I I’m ****ing you because I like you and because I really like your body and I want to just ****ing tell you everything I think. And I just want to make sure that makes you feel comfortable.

[00:42:39] That would be my dream.

[00:42:40] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:40] Yes.

[00:42:41] Matie Fricker: [00:42:41] That doesn’t happen.

[00:42:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:42] Yes, yes.

[00:42:43] Matie Fricker: [00:42:43] Like that and that. And that hasn’t has it happened for you? Like,

[00:42:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:48] so I get some of that with this creature over here. So one of the things he does, he’s like, Oh, I love your belly, rub my belly, and then your legs when out, you’re like, ah, Oh, it’s the best thing.

[00:42:59] Matie Fricker: [00:42:59] Yeah.

[00:43:00]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:00] [00:43:00] And there’s because there’s a line between, I love your body and all I could see as your body.

[00:43:06] Matie Fricker: [00:43:06] Right, right.

[00:43:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:07] And so it’s like. Yes, I want you to love my personality. Yes, yes, yes. But like, I want you to love my body and we are going to love my thighs and I want you to love like where my thighs meet my ***** and I want you to love my belly, my big giant belly button.

[00:43:20] And I want you to love my, my like, underarm fat. And like, yeah, and just like all the, all the things like, I feel like this is a thing that thin women get. Like men lick them all over, all over everything and they’re like, Oh, I love your, your knee pit, right? Like, whatever that is.

[00:43:36] Matie Fricker: [00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:36] that knee pit

[00:43:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:36] And like the back of my, like the button back of my thighs off, like, like just having that stroked in, smacked in, like, you know, and it’s like,

[00:43:46] Matie Fricker: [00:43:46] eat your ass too.

[00:43:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:47] That’s right.

[00:43:48] Matie Fricker: [00:43:48] Eat your ass  like ****ing breakfast.

[00:43:51]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:51] That’s right.

[00:43:52] Matie Fricker: [00:43:52] That’s all of it. I just want that. But like,

[00:43:57] I’m with you. Eat my [00:44:00] ass and tell me you love it.

[00:44:04] That’s, that’s, that’s the romance these days. 2020 ass eating.

[00:44:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:08] And I was just talking to someone here who has a fat partner who, you know, my size ish. Um, and I’ve mentioned this before, my about, size 32. So I’m like on the edge of super Superfad and, and who was, I was like. I can’t remember how we got there, but I, I was like, well, why don’t you just talk about her fat body?

[00:44:27] Cause like, Oh, I can never call her fat. And I was like, my mother ****er, she is a fat and there’s nothing wrong with it. He’s like, I feel like I would be degrading her. And it’s like, no, if you don’t acknowledge that she’s fat, maybe she doesn’t want that language. You should talk to her about that.

[00:44:41] But like, you know, then you’re pretending that things are different than they are. You know, and I know that

[00:44:48] Matie Fricker: [00:44:48] she knows she’s fat,

[00:44:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:49] right? It’s not, it’s not a mystery. It’s not like we walk around pretending like, Oh, and somebody finds like, Oh, you’re fat. And we’re like, Oh, I’m so surprised.

[00:44:55] Like that’s not a

[00:44:58] Matie Fricker: [00:44:58] thing.

[00:45:00] [00:45:00] The world treats her differently every day because of it.


[00:45:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:03] Yeah.

[00:45:03] Matie Fricker: [00:45:03] And so it, I feel like it being like, like, Oh no, you’re not, that is being like the is the equivalent of somebody saying, I don’t see color. Like, like, Oh, it’s so gross.

[00:45:14] Yeah. Like, no, we have differences between us and, and where things were. And those things matter because we live in a world that treats us all differently.

[00:45:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:26] That’s right. Like if they treated as everyone was treated the same, it would be a different conversation. I don’t even know what that would look like, but that is not true and we need to stop pretending that.

[00:45:35] That’s true.

[00:45:36] Matie Fricker: [00:45:36] One of the thing I really love with, with both platonic intimacy people who are just like the people who are good in my life and and sweet partners like, or something that really just helps me feel loved. Um, and, and it was not fed sex. It’s so related to fat care and nurturing and bodies.

[00:45:57] Cause I feel like there’s this other thing where it’s like [00:46:00] fat, sex and then, and then fat how much you know, um, is when someone, uh, cares for and nurtures my body and recognizes the needs of my body. So like, I work retail and I work like 12 hour plus days. And I’m like, if I’m with somebody  and they think about it and they’re like, you know what, let me rub your feet. Like, like I’m gushing like my *****’s  gushing or, um, or I feel cared for and feeling cared for. It’s something that like, I feel like I have, I have definitely like absorbed the message that like, my job is to care for others.

[00:46:40] And so when someone cares for me, it feels. Um, that’s how I know,

[00:46:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:46] feels deep

[00:46:47] Matie Fricker: [00:46:47] and it knows, and it helps me know I can trust them when they also want to eat my ass. That it’s not about some ****ed up. I want to, I put my tongue in that girl’s [00:47:00] ass and this is how far it took me to get into her ass, or blah, blah.

[00:47:03] Like, like it then becomes like, I’m doing this thing because  I like caring for you and I want to care for you and caring for you is good. And I feel like that, that’s like a piece that I think was really missing. And when I feel the difference, it frequently is a lack of care.

[00:47:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:47:22] Yeah.

[00:47:23] Matie Fricker: [00:47:23] Yeah. So you touched, I’m like, Oh, I’m like, underwear time. Yeah. So what, what, how were you help me to, to knock it out in the next couple minutes.

[00:47:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:47:35] Maybe tell us one or two hot, sexy stories about what you’ve done here and what you loved about being here.

[00:47:40] Matie Fricker: [00:47:40] So, so one major thing I did here. So I’m here as a sex educator.

[00:47:44] So a lot of people are here on a sex education. Um, I’m, I’m here for, I’m here for work. so Tristan Taormino, is a dear friend and mentor and somebody who, uh, really does an incredible job of, of pulling [00:48:00] people up. So where she’s at, um, and, and Tristin Taormino , uh, who we’ve talked about this the other day, what’s her podcast name?

[00:48:07] Sex out loud, sex out loud. Go give it a listen. And so good. And we did a live podcast here, , yesterday, but so she is, um, she’s a sex educator respect her  for years. She’s become a friend, um, a dear friend. And so she invited me to be here with her and to teach. I’d above G-spot with the knowledge accusation, and

[00:48:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:28] I hard that class  was amazing by all accounts.

[00:48:31] Matie Fricker: [00:48:31] So glad to hear that because, and I, and my work, I don’t get to do demos and I don’t get to use my body, my and I, I would, I would not choose to have my home community because I liked to have space between my sexuality and the work of the people who are coming in, like it’s about them and it’s about their work.

[00:48:49] And I’m just there to help. And in this case, um, I got to,  I got to teach with Tristan, which was like a lifelong dream.  and we were, we were very [00:49:00] sassy and funny together and it was great. Um, and then, and then at the end we broke up into smaller groups and people. Who were interested or able to practice what they learned.

[00:49:12] So a lot of couples,  touch each other in each other’s bodies. I’m using some toys that abroad and then, uh, and then a lot of, and then Tristan did a demo, um, on someone here. I mean,

[00:49:24]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:49:24] Tanya, I was yesterday, I hear about a show can name names because has already been talked about and we have permission for that.

[00:49:31] Matie Fricker: [00:49:31] And I, I went and in a corner and did “Show and Tell *****.” ***** party!!!! Um, and was like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna talk about anatomy and how the body works and I’m going to show you. And so I’m going to show you what arousal does and I’m going to show you what happens. And in that class,

[00:49:48] I wore intentionally wore, um, a tiny skirt and a and, and like a halter top, um, but full belly out, full belly, private, like right in the middle of my body. Sitting [00:50:00] down with full belly, you know? Um, and, and, and, and then I just brought people over the corner and I was like, very much like, I hope people are going to have sex with each other, that they’re going to watch her.

[00:50:10] And like, like if I’m jerking off in the corner by myself, that’ll be fine. You know, like, and, and then I had a huge group of people come and, and I was surrounded by folks and just like, took off my skirt, propped myself up. People got up, helped me out, God’s Howells so that I can lean back and.

[00:50:27] And I, and I, and I showed my Bonnie and, and it was great because I didn’t, I didn’t give any apology for my body. I was like,  all bodies are good bodies deserving of love. Exactly as they are. And I believe that in that moment. And that my body was in that too.

[00:50:44] And so I  took off my panties, took off my skirt, uh, spread my legs open, prop them up on an ottoman and people held up their flash Pope telephones like, like it was, I felt like a rock star. But you know, people held up their, their flashlights on their [00:51:00] phones and everybody looked at my body and I, and I then talked about arousal until this is what my body looks like when it’s not aroused and it’s different and you have to add arousal.

[00:51:12] Months do that. And I talked through, as I got turned on, I showed the difference and I showed her what happened. I showed how my labia changes and I how how bodies change. And then I, and I showed how my G-spot gets bigger and it’s like, see the difference and this is what’s happening. And then, and then I used a vibrator and I, and I said, I’m, and I said, and I’m probably not gonna come.

[00:51:31] Everyone should know that  I’m not an exhibitionist. I’m not somebody who feels more comfortable and relaxed  when people watch, I actually feel more shy. And concerned and self-aware.

[00:51:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:42] Um, that’s me. Yeah. Yeah. Nervous.

[00:51:45] Matie Fricker: [00:51:45] And I’m allowed to, like, there’s also like, there’s this thing, there’s this thing that happens sometimes in these spaces where people are like, everybody’s just fit out.

[00:51:53] I’m like, I don’t feel that way. And that’s okay. You know? Um, I’m allowed to both be self aware and try and shut [00:52:00] down. And I learned, use my ***** at a class and, and,

[00:52:04] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:52:04] yeah.

[00:52:05] Matie Fricker: [00:52:05] And then, and then I came and I did. And I was like, I want to give myself permission not to squirt, not to come, not to, not to have that in there.

[00:52:14] And there was room for that. And then it happened and I squirted in front of a room full of people. And then I also felt the experience of feeling like. Shy and nervous. And I asked for reassurance and you know, I said, can you tell me that was good? And then I explained like physiologically, like when we have this sort of big release, it’s really common to have attachment things.

[00:52:35] So I’m having attachment things with these group of people. And could you affirm for me that, that, that what I did was good and so it was ****ing amazing. It was, it was so cool to use my body to teach and to also wreck and to, and to teach the whole time. I’m having an orgasm and I don’t know how many sex educators have done that, I think is a [00:53:00] real short list.

[00:53:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:01] Yeah. I bet it is

[00:53:02] Matie Fricker: [00:53:02] yeah!

[00:53:03] So I felt like it was a really cool and brave space for me and that

[00:53:08] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:08] kind of a bucket list moment.

[00:53:10] Matie Fricker: [00:53:10] Yeah. Yeah. And then everyone, you heard it was a good workshop. Like people have been so kind to me. And, and just, you know,

[00:53:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:19] as it should be.

[00:53:20] Matie Fricker: [00:53:20] Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s what I really believe about this space, is that it really seems to hold an ethic of kindness. Above kindness is the currency. Kindness is the way people move through things. Kindness is, is the way people see each other. And so, so it’s, it’s less about who you want to ****.

[00:53:40] for me. and I think it is for other people too, and I think that’s why the sex actually happens. And then, and then in a little while in, which is why I’m like, Oh God, I gotta write things up. Um, in a little while. I, apparently, I, there’s, there’s someone who has not had a lot of girl on girl action.

[00:53:57] Um, and, and her partner. [00:54:00]  someone I’m, and I don’t want to like, you know, uh, somebody I’ve never had sex with before and I, uh, like we are like going to go and **** the two of them on the beach. Um, and I’ve got to go get all the safer sex supplies. Cause that’s how I roll and, and

[00:54:17] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:54:17] towels and water bottle,

[00:54:18] Matie Fricker: [00:54:18] See See you know these things well, the sand.

[00:54:21] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:54:21] Yeah. Yeah. Do you need to clear sand?

[00:54:23] Matie Fricker: [00:54:23] Sure. We gotta watch out for sand. So good tips. So I’m going to go grab those and then I’m going to help somebody have a gang bang here at, uh, three 30. So, um, although a lot of people have talked about like, feeling like, like frenzy, then they’ll go, God, this is, and I, I’m not in that place so far.

[00:54:41] I think that, I came in with, not only no expectations. I came in with expectations of it will not be a good place for my body. It will not, and not be a good place for my sexuality like this. I am not like theirs. Like when they give you beads, there’s not even a bead [00:55:00] for my sexuality.

[00:55:00] Like I am, I’m, I’m a, I’m a Dyke. I’m a lesbian. Like, like, uh, and that. I was like, there won’t be anyone like me here. Um, and there’s not a whole lot of people like me here. Like in this space. My sexuality is probably the one of the least represented. And

[00:55:23] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:23] gay men would be the other one.

[00:55:24] Matie Fricker: [00:55:24] Yeah.

[00:55:24] Last year we had, um, gay male  couple, but in the three years, I think that’s the only one that we’ve had actually show up is too Yeah.

[00:55:32] Who are just like, no, we’re not interested. We’re not bisexual. Like, we’re just, and, and what’s been really nice is, uh, no one, no one has taken it upon themselves to try to, convince me otherwise about my body.

[00:55:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:48] I should hope not.

[00:55:49] Matie Fricker: [00:55:49] I know, I know, but have you been in swinger spaces? Have you been, you’ve been in spaces with a lot of men? Yeah. A lot of, you know, or

[00:55:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:55:56] you just haven’t found the right men?

[00:55:58] Matie Fricker: [00:55:58] Yeah, no. Good. [00:56:00] Well,

[00:56:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:00] and in swingers spaces, that other ones that I’ve been really centered around CIS folks, but also really centered around thinness.

[00:56:06] And when I first came here, that was my big concern is my, my nesting partner is a thin CIS. Dude. Right. And he’s also an amazing fat ally. Like that was one of my requirements when we got together. I was like, you gotta eat like you’re gonna, you’re gonna have to up your game and, and advocate for me and in spaces that I cannot advocate for myself when he took that on and I’m very grateful.

[00:56:29] Matie Fricker: [00:56:29] Great.

[00:56:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:30] And as it should be, as it should be,

[00:56:32]Matie Fricker: [00:56:32] it’s easier, but it’s easier for him to do it. Yeah. Easier for me to do things as a smaller fat person, right? Like,

[00:56:39] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:56:39] yeah. But that’s, I was worried about. Being fat in this space, because in my experience, a swinger  spaces is, it’s all thin people are, they don’t really want me here.

[00:56:48] Right. Um, and that’s gross. And here that has not been, that has not been the case. I know that I have stuff about it until I am reluctant to approach people, unless the signals are real, real clear.

[00:56:59] Matie Fricker: [00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:57:00] [00:57:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:57:00] Um, and so sometimes I’m like, well, maybe I’m, you know, maybe this year I’m finally like, Oh.

[00:57:06] Oh, those people like me. Yeah. But like this is our third time, right. Over a course of this three years. Right? Yeah. And that’s a long time to be in community before you’re like. Oh Hey, maybe they do really want to **** me,

[00:57:18] Matie Fricker: [00:57:18] like I’ve talked to, I’ve talked to some folks who have been coming here for years and years and years.

[00:57:24] you’re like, Oh, I’ve been here, coming here for three years, and we’re just gonna I, I talked to somebody who, who’s been here since the beginning of the takeovers and they didn’t, they didn’t even touch anyone else at all for the first three years.

[00:57:38] And they ever like that. And that’s, and that’s normal too.

[00:57:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:57:42] Yeah.

[00:57:43] Matie Fricker: [00:57:43] That’s healthy too. That’s, yeah, but, but, but in a place where there were spaces, highly sexualized, you feel like everybody’s getting some, and on and on and on. And I feel like that that’s, that is not. The thing that I’m going to take [00:58:00] from this space is probably not the sex.

[00:58:03] Like, I mean, I’m happy. I’m happy that I’m, I’m able to like, I’m to be of service to some folks. I’m happy that I felt desired. I’m happy. I’m happy that I got a really smaller fist, mostly in my ***** yesterday. Like, that was really fun and, and I’m happy for like the connections that I’ve made, but, but.

[00:58:24] The thing that I really am taking from this as being seen as a whole person.

[00:58:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:30] Yeah.

[00:58:31] Matie Fricker: [00:58:31] And that’s why people want to **** me, is that I that it’s that, that I made them laugh a whole lot at the bar, or I said something in a workshop that. That helped them. Or, I mean the people

[00:58:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:46] Or love your body

[00:58:47] Matie Fricker: [00:58:47] or they love my body, they ****ing love my body and they love, they love the clothes I’m wearing.

[00:58:51] Cause

[00:58:51] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:58:51] cause they wanna **** you until you jiggle.

[00:58:53]Matie Fricker: [00:58:53] They wanna **** me while I jiggle. Yeah. Um, but it’s, but, but that, um, that. [00:59:00] In the same way where we tend to prioritize romantic relationships. I think we also tend to prioritize sexual relationships. And I’m really actively working to de-center those in my life.

[00:59:12], I feel like this space actually welcomes that too. And so I’m, I have a feeling that a lot of people really like you and I think that they like you for so many more reasons. That, um, and that a lot of them are about your body and your, and your whole person and all, and they will not forget you.

[00:59:32] And that, um, that, that they’re like, like I think, I think there, there have been moments where, uh, where you’ve been there that have helped me feel safe and, and, um. And that this is a place for me and that I hope, I hope that I do some of that work for you and that we all make it a little bit easier for us to feel safe here.

[01:00:00] [01:00:00] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, you know, believe that people like you and make a move to, um, I, I know what, I’ve started small moves this year. You know, what I’ve started doing is just asking people if they, if they, if they want a kiss.

[01:00:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:00:14] Yes.

[01:00:15] Matie Fricker: [01:00:15] And I’d be like, I’m kissing people. Do you want to kiss?

[01:00:17] And people are like, yes, I do. Yes, I do. So last night I just made out with a bunch of people. It was so, it’s fine. How does fine.

[01:00:25]Briana Cavanaugh: [01:00:25] Yesterday I told someone like he was walking by and I said, he said, um, I was just telling everyone how hot I think you are. And he was like, hello. Hi. Yes. Good to see you.

[01:00:37] Yeah. I had a lovely make-out and it was really, it was very delicious. But like I. It’s, it’s taken me a while to get to a place in, in this space, in this community where I’m just like, I can, I can see things with my out loud voice. Um, and then yesterday in the pool, there was the two other women and we were two other fat women and we were like squishing altogether.

[01:00:58] And I was just having this like, [01:01:00] amazing, like, ah, it was so good. And, um, I’m much, I’m much shyer with, with women than I am with, um, men.

[01:01:08] Matie Fricker: [01:01:08] DOn’t worry that’s are  women are too . That’s why I rarely get laid

[01:01:11] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:01:11] No, I know. It’s ridiculous. I, um, and one of them, I know one of the women was straight, so I was like really reluctant saying they were just like, this is so good.

[01:01:20] Yeah,

[01:01:20] Matie Fricker: [01:01:20] yeah, yeah. And then, um, so I think, I think, yeah, you should know that when I was, when I was telling people about my night and day, and like last night you know, I may know some people on my, on my pals were like, what are you doing? Oh Matie, just get in trouble as you’re getting gang banged up in the hot tub.

[01:01:36] And that was not what I was doing. And then I came down and then I was like, Oh yeah. And then, and then I had grilled cheese and pizza with the cools fat kid crew.

[01:01:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:01:44] That’s right. So we do, we have a fat kid crew,

[01:01:47] Matie Fricker: [01:01:47] and I don’t know if that’s, if that’s the words you want to use. But like, but like, definitely like I see, I see you and a few other people, a few other [01:02:00] pals that I see moving around.

[01:02:01] I am like that those kids, I want to ****ing hang out with them. They are cool as ****.

[01:02:07] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:02:07] And last night was, I got a hit of that and I wouldn’t have put it into words until you said that, but I got, we were all sitting there and I was like, Oh, is this the fat group? Yeah.

[01:02:17] Matie Fricker: [01:02:17] Yeah.

[01:02:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:02:19] And it’s so great cause we’re all sitting there with like our bellies out and most of us are naked and we’re just eating food and like one o’clock in the morning and we’ve been having amazing sex and connections and we’re just like, and it was like, I was like, Oh, we have a crew.

[01:02:32] And there’s like a way that I can relax into it because these folks, um, especially the women in that group are like, they’re my friends and they’re my people. And yeah. And I was noticing how like all of them I’d been in touch with since over the last year since we were here last year. And I was like, Oh, these are like my friends.

[01:02:53] And that is a, I feel like that’s Very different than it was like when I came here and felt very alone and worried and nervous and [01:03:00] all this stuff.

[01:03:01] Okay. Okay. I got it. We should wrap up. So you should do, tell me, tell us where we can find you on your social media and your website

[01:03:08] Matie Fricker: [01:03:08] So you can find me on, um, on self-served Instagram.

[01:03:12] So I, my company is Self Serve Toys. You’ll find me. That’s what a space where, where I tend to would, you know, do a lot of posting. Um, you can also find me on Facebook. I’m Maie Fricker. I don’t take friend requests from people who I don’t know. So send me, send me a w why we should be pals.

[01:03:31] Um, uh, but you can find me. It’s selfservetoys.com and, and I love, I love the work I do. And you can find us on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and like all those things, all in all SelfServeToys.com. Tell selfservetoys.com Um, and, and

[01:03:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:03:48] we have the link in the show notes so that you can find great.

[01:03:51] Matie Fricker: [01:03:51] Yeah. Great. And I’ll give a, I’ll do a promo code. Okay. Just to get a discount on sex toys and

[01:03:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [01:03:56] that’s awesome.

[01:03:57] Yeah, totally. Like they, you know, get a [01:04:00] discount and **** yourself silly. And, and also, um, we could do a whole talk at some other point about BI about fat sex and sex toys and the reasons why they’re amazing and why also  like paying attention to what, what your body means and being really clear about that.

[01:04:17] Because when somebody’s market something to fat folks, they’re generally not asking. Like you, what you want and what you need and what will actually work for you. And so, I tend to not have a one size fits all approach just because it doesn’t help. Although “curvy girls sex”, fantastic by L chase.

[01:04:36] So check that out too. And we’ll put all these links in the show notes so you can find them and we’ll make sure that you can find me because she’s thank you all so much. And, um. You know, I, I feel so honored to be a part of this and, uh, I can’t wait to listen to it later cause I, I, uh, I’m having a real good week.

[01:04:55] All right. Thanks everyone for coming. We’ll talk to you later.


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Ep 00 Welcome to Fat Girl Finds Love

Ep 00 Welcome to Fat Girl Finds Love

Ep 0 – Welcome to Fat Girl Finds Love!

This is my first epispode! 

Just a fat girl who found love in a world that hates fat people. People started asking me how I did it. This is my story.


This idea feels like it has been years in the making.  Here is where you can learn all about me, Briana Cavanaugh. why I’m doing this podcast and what we have in store. I have wanted to write a blog or something about how I went from being wracked with trauma and only dating and falling in love with addicts and people who were cruel and abusive to me, to having a great stable love life, personal life work and family life.  I’m not saying I’m perfect, but what I have done is heal a lot of trauma, clean up a lot of mess and find a lot of happiness through a whole lot of mess and pleasure.   And people ask me a lot how I did it. I’m not sure I have all the answers but I’ve done a lot of things and some of them have even worked. I thought you might want to know.

Show Notes – Welcome to Fat Girl Finds Love

Meet Your Hostess Briana Cavanaugh!

This is an interview by Dalia Kinsey of School Nutrition, Dietician podcast of Briana Cavanaugh, hostess of Fat Girl Finds Love.

Dalia will be a frequent guest and occasional co-host! She’s awesome! We do an interview of Dalia a bit later in the series, but her bio and links are included here so you can find her if you need her!

In this episode we talk about:

Dalia lives in Georgia and Briana lives in California! So we are now bi-coastal!

-My vital stats

-Age, race, identities

-Why do we use the word fat?

-Finding my fat identity

-Going to NOLOSE for the first time and what it felt like to spend time with fat people

-How sex positive spaces are not fat positive and what does that actually mean?

-being able to get more voices heard and get my work around relationships, love sex, and relationships

– Do they want fat people there?

– The Racist origins of dieting

– “Fearing the black body, the racial origins of fatphobia” by Sabrina Strings on The Nod: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/the-nod/o2hwbb

-“if you’re going to do something that’s not the patriarchy, what are you going to do.

– Hanne Blank’s “Big, Big Love” book

– You get to have choice about your relationship.

-“ it’s time that we have the lives that we want to live now.”

– How are we having pleasure in our lives now? Pleasure is a game changer. As soon as you have enough pleasure everything changes. 

Dalia Kinsey is a School Nutrition Specialist and Health at Every Size Registered Dietitian on a mission to make health accessible to all by encouraging body respect and joyful movement.

Dalia worked in public health for years prior to moving to K-12 where she manages special diets, menu planning, social media, and nutrition education for a medium sized district in middle Georgia.

She created the School Nutrition Dietitian podcast to serve as a one stop shop for best practices and inspiration for professionals in school food service.  She uses her platform to not only capture the wisdom of veteran employees, but to stress the importance of offering students evidenced based nutrition education, untainted by diet culture.

You can follow Dalia on IG, FB, or LinkedIn:

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/schoolnutritionrd/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daliakinsey/

TRANSCRIPT No fatshaming for the holidays

[00:00:00]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:22] hello everyone.  so it’s Briana Cavanaugh and today I’m going to do an episode about holidays, food, fat shaming. Um, and the holidays. I know I said holidays twice. So I have been noticing that there is a. Um, I believe the, it’s an actual metric fuck ton of fat shaming around the holidays. I don’t know if it’s ever happened to you that some relative says something stupid.

[00:00:57] Um, something about dieting, something about [00:01:00] food, something that makes you feel bad about who you are.  and I just want to say that’s not, that’s not okay. And take a stand in this episode and give you some resources about how to deal with fat shaming and people being generally shitty about, , their weird body stuff and diets and sizeism, et cetera, ableism around the holidays.

[00:01:22] I hope this helps. So I went looking for a definition of fat shaming, and I found one on, on Wikipedia. And I thought it was very ironic. And before I read it to you, I’m gonna tell you a little bit about, what the irony, as some of you will recognize it immediately.  They, we use the words overweight or obese.

[00:01:42] And so obese is a path, a pathologizing word, meaning it’s, it’s, uh, it’s medicalizing it’s saying it’s, it’s saying there is something wrong with you. And overweight is a word that people use when they assume that there is a good weight or a right weight to be. Um, both of those [00:02:00] are, um, are, are essentially fat shaming words.

[00:02:04] So putting those in the definition of fat shaming, I thought was hilarious. Not in a, you know, in an ironic way. So, um, let me read you the definition of fat shaming from Wikipedia, and then we’ll talk a little bit about fat shaming. I’m going to give you some references or resources. Um, some tips. And then I’m going to let you be on your way.

[00:02:28] I’m going to try to make this, my idea was to make this one a little bit shorter so that you can get to using the resources and kind of consume the content, um, rather than it being an hour you can like get into it, get the, get the resources you need and kind of get out. So. The Wikipedia definition is, it’s as anti-fat bias refers to the prejudicial assumption of personality characteristics based on an assessment of a person as being overweight or obese.

[00:02:56] Those are the words I was mentioning. It’s also known as fat shaming. [00:03:00] A fat activists allege anti-fat bias can be found in many facets of society and blame the media for the pervasiveness of this phenomenon. And this is also ironic because it assumes like this is clearly a definition that is not pro fat, right?

[00:03:16] It’s like  they allege as thought it’s not a real thing. And those of us who live in fat bodies know that anti-fat bias is fucking everywhere. So, um. I just thought it was very like, funny and ironic. So fat shaming really refers to the idea that, that people are prejudiced against fat people, right? That’s essentially when we’re talking about bias or fatphobia, um, they’re prejudice against fat people.

[00:03:43] So they met medicalize and pathologize us, um, and assume all sorts of. Bullshit, um, and have all sorts of demeaning qualities associated with being fat, like all the stereotypes about lazy and sloppy. And they, you know, we sit around and eat [00:04:00] donuts all day and don’t exercise. And they use those reasons. Those stereotypes to deny us services, um, deny us healthcare. But really what it comes down to you as a blaming us for anything and everything that happens to us as fat, people. From lack of healthcare, um, to not being able to sit in chairs to poverty, lack of jobs, um, you know, social stuff. There’s all kinds of things that go into this.

[00:04:27] And, um, yeah, it’s not cool. Basically, it’s not cool. So all of those places where you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, is this, are people doing this because I’m, I’m fat?” The answer is yes. Yes.

[00:04:45] And in some places it’s illegal. In San Francisco and in Santa Cruz, there’s the two way places that I’m clear about. It’s illegal to discriminate against people because of their size, just like it’s illegal to discriminate against people because of their gender or their [00:05:00] sexuality or their, the color of their skin, et cetera,. In some places it’s a protected status.

[00:05:06] I’m not everywhere, but it’s, it’s, I am hoping and praying that this is up and coming because it seems to be, um, when I first knew about it was just San Francisco and I was like, that’s awesome. And now it’s in Santa Cruz as well. I don’t know if that was, I don’t know the history of that, but that’s pretty cool.

[00:05:24] So I posit. I am taking a stand for that you shouldn’t have to deal with fat phobia, especially at the holidays, especially the people who claim to love you, especially with your family, especially, um, anywhere ever. So I wanted to bring you some resources

[00:05:40] I’m going to give you some, you know, synopsis and then. Uh, the links will be in the show notes, so you can just pop in to the show notes and click on links and get, get what you need. Highly recommend

[00:06:00] [00:05:59] So, and if you have questions or you want to talk more about fatphobia, you want to get some support, um, come and join our Facebook group. So we have an extraordinary podcast Facebook group, and there’s a link to that in the show notes. So one of the people who’s writing, I noticed as I read through all these different things I’m loving, is Ragen cast.

[00:06:21] Kassteen. Chastin, um, has done a bunch of stuff around holidays and fatphobia and I was like, thrilled to find this. So I decided to do this episode because one of her songs came across my, um, my desk and I was like, this is bad ass. So the song was, is called, ” hark, hark, hark the chairs.” It, and it’s like, um, one of my favorite is a take off of one of my favorite christmas songs, and it’s all about, um, armless chairs.

[00:06:53] And I was like, this is awesome. So the, there’s a link to that. There’s actually a link to this whole [00:07:00] series of, of, um, songs that she and her friend Janet did, including a song called “my body rocks.” Um, “don’t give me judgment for Christmas,” which is a takeoff on, I’m getting nothing for Christmas and “no one cares about your diet.”

[00:07:15] So, um. I laughed. I like felt uplifted by these songs. They delighted me and I think everyone should have them, including you. So hop over. I mean, you know, if you’re listening to this and the app, it’s right below. If you’re listening to us on a webpage, you know the, the show notes are right there. Go and, and listen to them and giggle and enjoy and upvote them and love on Reagan for doing this work.

[00:07:38] Awesome. So I also just put together some tips. So if you’re going home for the holidays or other places, and not, might not be awesome for your mental health or that are fat phobic. Here are some tips that I’ve come up with to help.

[00:07:53] Um, first of all. The thing that I started doing right away when I realized that this was an issue is have friends [00:08:00] on standby. Before you head home,

[00:08:02] set up a text thread or some, you know, tag some folks that you can call if something happens. Um, having backup can help a lot. So many that you can text me like this bitch, right? Um, who can, you know, have your back, get on the phone with you, give you snappy retorts um, for your, you know. Weird, fat phobic uncle.

[00:08:25] Um, then you know, somebody has your back.

[00:08:27] My second tip for you is prepare your remarks. Come up with, um, practice like come up with and practice a couple of snappy or just not so snappy retorts of things that you can say if someone says something. Right? And there’s a, I put a link, um, I put a link to some other, other places to get some ideas about what to say exactly, but you know, somebody says something, you know, you can just say, it’s not okay to talk to me like that.

[00:08:56] I’m not available to talk to you about my body. Um, and so on. [00:09:00] So you could just straight up say, but it helps. It really, really helps to practice an advance and just look in the mirror and say. “It’s not okay to talk to me that way,” or “I don’t talk about diets,” right. “I don’t want to talk. I don’t want to hear about your weird food thing.”

[00:09:15] Um. Right. So my third, my third tip is set the stage. So, um, now that you’ve practiced a couple of these phrases, um, if you know that certain people are gonna say stuff, let them, or the people around them or the people around you know that that’s not okay in a well-placed, that’s not okay. I don’t talk about diet.

[00:09:34] You know, diet talk. Um, I don’t talk about weight loss. I’m not interested in weight loss. Keep your opinions about my body to yourself. Um, can do wonders, you know, just saying, Hey, if you, you know, if you continue to talk about this, I’m not going to stick around. Or if they have come into your house, if you continue to talk about this, I’m going to ask you to leave.

[00:09:54] Um, it’s very powerful. Right. Cause people will know that you’re serious and then it’s okay to [00:10:00] ask people to leave or to leave a situation where people are being fat phobic.  it’s abusive anyway, but especially once you set a boundary, if they’re, you know, gaslighting you and they’re like, “ha ha ha, no, this is just funny.

[00:10:11] Why can’t you take a joke ?”That’s gaslighting, right? If you set a boundary, you can leave. It’s okay. It’s okay to not spend time with people who treat you like shit.

[00:10:22] That’s all there is to it.

[00:10:24] And I know that that’s complicated because I have a complicated family and I’ve been basically spending my whole adult life how to have boundaries with the people who are related to me, who I love, or who say that they love me, and who either don’t behave that way or don’t behave that way consistently, or who are just very caught up in diet culture.

[00:10:44] And you know, there’s a way that it’s sort of not their fault because they were raised in this, but like there’s enough information out there that people should really get that. Like it’s not cool to talk about diet stuff. It’s just not cool. It’s none of your business. Anything about my body, right? [00:11:00] It’s not cool.

[00:11:01] So, um, uh, Ragen also wrote a great article. “Here’s how to not ruin the holidays for, for fat folks”. And there’s a link to that. So a few of the tips that I thought were really good. Um, the first one is don’t give weight loss or health gifts. Like, don’t give people gym memberships. Don’t give people coupons for, you know, diet food.

[00:11:22] Right? Um, don’t do it. It’s not nice. Especially if you, if that’s not something they’re interested in, right? It’s like, it is very similar to giving a bottle of booze to your sober alcoholic family members. Like if they’re an AA and they don’t want the booze, like it’s not cool to do that. And this is. It’s not exactly the same, but if someone has said they don’t want it, it’s a, it’s a violation of their boundaries.

[00:11:47] Okay. I’m a second tip that I thought was really great. Like I thought she did a really good job on this was there’ll be the food police. There’s no need to monitor, comment on, concern yourself in any way with fat [00:12:00] peoples or any people’s free choices, uh, parties, holiday dinners, or, you know, ever. And then there’s this great line in her article.

[00:12:08] I really recommend going and reading this article. It says, “if we need the food, police will call PI one one.” I thought it was cute. Um, don’t give people the fat shaming cards or gifts. Right?  Anything that comments on people’s bodies or, you know, makes fun of bodies. It’s not okay . And if you’re the one doing the gift giving, if you’re, you know, a thin person or your cotton diet culture, don’t put your fat, family and friends in the position to have to decide whether to cut you off or not because you’re being abusive.

[00:12:38] Like it’s just not cool. Right? And again, it’s okay to say ‘no’ to people. I think we’re very, very taught to be. Polite, right? And to not say anything and you don’t want to offend, you know, you’re weird aunt, and, but the truth is, it’s time that we learn to set boundaries. It doesn’t have to even be mean [00:13:00] to just have your own space, and say, I don’t want to talk about that. Right? And if you thought about it, like if somebody loses, lost their job, for example, and you started to talk about, and they said, I don’t want to talk about that though. The right thing is to say, okay, I respect that. I’m not going to talk to you about it. The end. It doesn’t have to be complicated. It’s cool.

[00:13:18] Right. And the other one that I really liked was, um, don’t engage in diet talk or negative body talk. It’s really the negative BodyTalk one that, that gets me. Um, this isn’t just about fat folks, but also for guests of any size or every size who might be dealing with eating disorders or guests who are interested in. guest. who are “not interested in conversations that are boring as hell.”

[00:13:41] but the, the idea is that people at every size struggle with, with food and eating disorders. Mmm. And you don’t want to be the one who is punishing yourself to look like a good dieting person, right? When the people are, when it makes the [00:14:00] people around you suffer.

[00:14:00] So just give it up. Enjoy your food. Eat what you want to eat. Don’t eat what you don’t want to eat. You know you, you can be on if you want to be on your diet, do it up, but do it up in a way that it doesn’t harm other people. Right. Okay. Um,  and then there was a related article, uh, dealing with family, friends and the food police.

[00:14:23] And I’ll put that, that article in here.

[00:14:25] And then there’s a, um, another article. This is sort of like a Roundup episode. There’s a article by Robin Raven on, um, hello giggles or six ways to deal with fat shaming during the holidays. Sort of someone who knows what it’s like. And so the, the basic message of this one, this post is no matter how or why anyone’s body looks the way it does, we deserve to be respected and treated with care.

[00:14:50] And I feel like that is really the message of this whole podcast is like, no matter what’s going on with your body, no matter what it looks like or how you’re feeling, or how much money you [00:15:00] make or whatever, you deserve to be treated with care. Mmm. And I recommend hopping over and taking a look at it, and it’s called “Six ways to deal with fat shaming during the holidays.”

[00:15:14] You, the underlying message here is you deserve to be treated with care. No matter what else has happened. Um, you deserve to be treated with care.

[00:15:23]my next tip, tip number five, would be to write down some body positive messages and take them with you. Uh, like, um, “I deserve to be treated with care.”

[00:15:33] You know, my body, there’s no wrong way to have a body. Right? I love my body. I just write them down on an index card. I actually do. This was a button. Bunch of things like my goals, um, things that I want to remember to tell myself. I put them on cards and put them in my wallet or in my pocket. And if I’m struggling, I, I take them out and I kind of shuffle through them or I put them in the notes of my, um, my iPhone, so that I can just look it up if I’m, if I’m [00:16:00] having a moment. you know, I put quotes and all kinds of stuff in there so that I can.

[00:16:03] I can take care of myself because it’s easy to slip up, slip up, and like be hard on yourself when everybody around you is like, Oh, I shouldn’t have that pie, or whatever. Their weird thing is, . So get your needs met, take care of yourself.

[00:16:17] And then our last tip, tip number six is come hang out with us in the Exxxxtraordinary community on Facebook.

[00:16:23] Come if you want to talk about this, if you’re looking for our support, you want to share support, you have support to give, come on and hang out with us in the extraordinary podcast. I wish you all the best possible holidays full of amazing peace. People, amazing people, delicious food, and a ton of ease and rest and restoration.

[00:16:45] All the best to you and your family and your friends, your children. Um, I, I wish you a really fantastic holiday season. Thank you so much for listening.


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