EP 15 – Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

EP 15 – Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Ep. 15: Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey

Overcoming Trauma with Leah Carey #15

Host of the Good Girls Talk About Sex podcast and sexual communication coach, Leah Carey is sharing her thoughts on the importance of sexual freedom and how she spent most of her life being a “very good girl.” Finding sex was boring or painful, Leah didn’t know she could ask for anything different. Listen to Leah’s journey to breaking that pattern and how she’s now passionate about breaking fear and shame for women. 


Ladies, it’s time to explore what you want and deserve!


What we’re talking about


  • Trauma Isn’t Always Physical
  • Leah’s Journey To Sexual Freedom
  • Body Positivity & Body Neutrality


Trauma Isn’t Always Physical

Growing up, Leah was told by her dad that she was fat, ugly and no one would ever love her. As she became an adult, she discovered that these were not inherent truths about herself but she couldn’t see that because she had been believing in what was said to her. As an adult, Leah believed in her brokenness in part because of the sex she had in her life which was either painful or simply not sesnsational. Leah shares that not all trauma is physical. She hadn’t been physically abused, but her memories were enough to cause trauma and create coping mechanisms that she created as a child and carried on as an adult. 


Leah doesn’t do trigger warnings when it comes to her podcast or content because she feels they’re overused and don’t give the message that people are stronger than they think. Every one of us is stronger than the trauma we’ve experienced. 


Leah’s Journey To Sexaul Freedom


Having little to no sexual sensation, Leah got to a place in life where she felt there should be pleasure when having sex and discovered tantric massage in which people with vaginas were able to refind sensation. She booked herself a 3 hour session and discovered that her pleasure signals were not getting to her brain, but her body, nervous system and sexual responses were all normal. She was not broken! And with that discovery, a door which had been slammed shut years before was suddenly opened back up. 


Leah went on a mission to find pleasure and on a solo trip around the country, she started posting and replying to Craigslist personal ads which led to threesomes and other adventures she’d been curious about. Part of Leah’s journey involved going to Hedonism and to her surprise, she found that she fit right in and that no one had a perfect body. The people who are most attractive and sexy are those who happily inhabit their bodies. The level of sexiness of a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the size of her body and everything to do with how she inhabits her body.


Body Positivity & Body Neutrality


Briana describes what it means to be fat positive, which is being comfortable with the word “fat.” Leah comes from a sex positive Portland community in which their goal isn’t body positivity, but body neutrality. Leah shares that it’s not about fawning over our bodies, but getting to the point that we are ok with our bodies, just as we are ok with having fingernails. It’s working towards not obsessing with any part of your body or your body overall and finding accepting in what it is and does for you. 


Are you 5% braver than you were last week?



Leah Carey’s Website 

Good Girls Talk About Sex Podcast

Good Girls Talk About Sex Facebook

Good Girls Talk About Sex Instagram

Good Girls Talk About Sex YouTube

If you enjoyed this episode and want more, join our FB group:


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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatgirlfindslove/

Twitter: @exxxxtrafat


11:21 – 12:08 (47 sec) LC – No, I think it’s really important…that is not how it works.


16:43 – 17:42 (59 sec LC) there has to be more…you are not broken




  1. I fully believed in my brokenness because of the sex I had in my life. LC
  2. I don’t do trigger warnings. I think you’re stronger than the trauma you’ve experienced. LC
  3. You’ll go as far, as fast as you’re ready for. LC
  4. Not all trauma is physical. LC
  5. The level of sexiness of a woman has absolutely nothing to do with the size of her body and everything to do with how she inhabits her body. LC
  6. My goal isn’t about body positivity, it’s about body neutrality. LC
  7. You just need to be 5% braver than you were last week. LC
  8. Trigger warnings are overused because they’re not giving people the message that they’re stronger than they think. LC

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

Ep. 12: Fat & Fertility with Nicola Salmon

Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon


Nicola Salmon is a fat-positive fertility coach and acupuncturist that has helped women around the world to find their path to something they’ve wanted their entire lives…parenthood. Today she talks with us about her journey to this inspiring career, and what she feels is one of the most crucial steps in helping her clients achieve their dream.


This information-packed episode is one you won’t want to miss!

What we’re talking about


  • Growing Up With the Shame of Being Fat
  • Trauma and How It Led to Becoming A Fat-Positive Fertility Coach
  • Embracing Her Own Fat Identity and Helping Other Bigger Bodied Women Get Pregnant


Growing Up With the Shame of Being Fat


Nicola lays it all out there with how it felt to grow up bigger, and feeling “different” than her peers. As young as age 8-9, she realized that she wasn’t the same as her friends. She was “bigger.” She was pressured to do things to get “healthy” (aka: lose weight), but Nicola accepted her size, and came to her “fat identity” at this age even with external pressure to see the number on the scale get smaller. At age 16 she was diagnosed with PCOS (Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome), and told she would never be able to have children.


Trauma and How It Led to Becoming A Fat-Positive Fertility Coach


When Nicola was just out of university, she was living in London. She was soundly asleep when a man was shot on her doorstep, and bullets flew just inches above her window. This led to PTSD, and, in her search for healing, she discovered acupuncture. The acupuncture was a game changer, helping to relieve her PTSD, and spurring her interest to help others with this tool. Her natural interest in PCOS and hormones led her to become a trained fertility coach.


Embracing Her Own Fat Identity and Helping Other Bigger Bodied Women Get Pregnant


Even though Nicola did not struggle with becoming pregnant, it was after delivering her own child that she not only embraced her fat identity, but she wanted to help other bigger bodied women to achieve their dream of parenthood as well. She focuses on finding supportive healthcare professionals, mental and physical aspects of how being fat affects the goal of becoming pregnant, and creating a positive mindset to set your body up for success.



Nicola Salmon on Instagram

Nicola Salmon on Facebook

Nicola Salmon’s Website

Fat and Fertile by Nicola Salmon

Fat Girl Finds Love Facebook Group



  • 20:23 – 21:15 (52 sec NS) For a lot of people, when they’re going through fertility…not getting enough intake for your body.
  • 25:24 – 25:57 (33 sec NS) One of the things I recommend…we should be looking at and focusing on.
  • 28:26 – 29:11 (44 sec NS) I would suggest that they spend some time…they don’t want to miss that opportunity to make a baby.
  • 31:46 – 32:20 (34 sec NS) Really figuring out what we believe…it just helps things fit together better.



  1. Weight is meant to fluctuate. It’s meant to fluctuate throughout the day, throughout our menstrual cycle, throughout our lifetime. – NS
  2. Making sure we’re getting all our needs met, and making sure that we’re taking care of those needs both sexual and non-sexual intimacy needs is really important. NS
  3. In order to advocate for yourself, you have to, at some level, believe you’re worth advocating for. BC

A mindset is a really critical component of being able to have a joyful, pleasurable life. If you’re worried all the time, you’re not going to see the joy coming at you. You’re not going to be able to be in the moment & be joyful. BC 

If you enjoyed this episode and want more, join our FB group:


You can also find Fat Girl Finds Love:

FP Page: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatgirlfindslove/

Twitter: @exxxxtrafat

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 13 – Fat and Fertility with Nicola Salmon

EP 12 – Desire with Dalia Kinsey

Ep. 12: Desire with Dalia

Desire with Dalia 

“It’s funny how that works, when you have a desire. It just comes back stronger and stronger and stronger.” Dalia Kinsey

We’re in a bit of transition with our show notes. We just hired someone to help. So there are tons of details coming.


For now you can reach Dalia:


School Nutrition Podcast (iTunes)

School Nutrition Podcast (Spotify)

Follow Dalia on Facebook  Instagram LinkedIn


If you enjoyed this episode and want more, join our FB group:


You can also find Fat Girl Finds Love:

FP Page: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fatgirlfindslove/

Twitter: @exxxxtrafat

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 11 – Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria Jackson Nefertiti

EP 11 – Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria Jackson Nefertiti

Ep. 11: Polyamory and Bisexuality with Gloria JN!

Gloria Jackson Nefertiti and Briana talk Bisexuality, Polyamory and Wombats!

In this episode I hung out with one of my favorite folks: Gloria Jackson Nefertiti! We’ve been online friends for 20+ years and only this year met in person! Wild, huh?


So we talk about:


Polyamory and having non-hierarchical relationships

Bisexuality and both being bisexual

Racism in poly community

Being valued and loved

Oh and WoMBaTs! Come find out what a WoMBaT is!



Gloria Jackson-Nefertiti is a polyamory educator, bisexual activist, and sex geek who is available for panel discussions and presentations on responsible non-monogamy, bisexuality, transcending shame, and abuse in the poly and sex-positive communities. She has done presentations and panel discussions at various schools, colleges, and conferences all over the United States and Canada, including Loving More/Poly Living (Denver, CO and Philadelphia, PA), SF BiCon (San Francisco and Oakland, CA), West Coast Bound Kink Conference (Coquitlam, BC), and ConvergeCon (Vancouver, BC). She has been fascinated by relationships and sexuality as long as she can remember, even during her fundamentalist xtian days. She is also a breast cancer survivor, published poet, public speaker, singer, photographer, performance artist and long-time artists’ model. You can learn more about Gloria from the following articles: #WomanCentered: GLORIA JACKSON-NEFERTITI – part of a series of interviews seeking to tell the inspiring, interconnected stories of women’s reproductive health, rights, and empowerment (PART ONE https://tinyurl.com/yat9pgpb and PART TWO https://tinyurl.com/y7ur8puu), and “Life with Two Boyfriends: Inside a Polyamorous Relationshiphttps://tinyurl.com/y73fgsow


You can find Gloria on 

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/GloriaJacksonNefertiti 

Twitter https://twitter.com/gloriajn 

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/gloriajacksonnefertiti/ 

Her website, Not Gloria Jean http://notgloriajean.net/ 

Gloria lives in Seattle, WA.

And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

Blog – One Good Covid Day

Blog – One Good Covid Day

Blog – One Good Covid Day

One Good Covid Day aka Briana Goes Out 

I kept a liveJouranl for about a dozen years. Andthen I moved my writing to a private forum and without the feedback and friends I basically gave up and took to writing in journals again.

But I thought, in addition t podcast episodes that I’d just write here and talk about life as a Fat Girl. Or as I call it: life.

We live in “unprecedented time.” Again. And I am getting to the point where I can’t stand that phrase. Yes things are terrible and yes I have been sheltering the hell in place. I just mean, turn a different phrase.


Today though I wanted to share about one good day I had.

It was Wednesday. And I had to Run. An. Errand. In future times looking back this sentence will either be seen as “I don’t know what the hell this nice white lady is talking about or “OMG YOU LEFT THE HOUSE?!?!?!?!?!”

And I honestly don’t know which at this point.

But I, your heroine needed to get some horticultural oil to help put the liquid seweed fertilizer on her peach trees becasue they got the curl fungus. Yeah, I know. But I have gardening time now.

So I dutuifully put in my order in to Home Depot on Thursday and waited for the confirmation email. I got that Friday. So the following Wednesady I frantically called them to make sure they hadn’t sent my shit back. They hadn’t.

So I headed over.

First good thing: it’s sunny and there’s no traffic!

If you don’t live in the California Bay Area you might not know that driving on the 101 freeway is a crap shoot.

Yes anytime day or night you might hit traffice going anywhere for any reason. One thing the Covid has done is kill the traffic (too soon?).

I arrived with my mask and my order number. I slid into one of the curbside delivery spots and put my mask on.

The nice people got me all the things. I was in and out in less than 10 minutes. That was awesome. But the best part was seeing other humans. I am non-essential (accoutning, yo!) and anyway I’ve worked from home for 10 years.

But usually I see people. we go to lunch, I swim and work out at the gym with a group of amazing folks.

I see friends.

I run errands.

I go downtown to the movies. I sit and play games under a tree in the paprk nearby.

I walk in the woods.

I just go out and enjoy the world.

I garden.

Of those things, right now I can do just one. Garden.  And I, like many of you, miss the hell out of my friends.

So even seeing people calmed my anxiety.

That’s a response of the limbic brain, ie your nervous system, telling me it’s gonna be fine.

But then I hadn’t been to a store in 10 weeks.

I haven’t seen other humans in person in 8.

That length of time is killer.

From there I went to another small local garden supply to grab some starts. Lavendar, sage, (yes soon we’ll have the whole song – I already have parsley at home)!

I went there both to support local and I knew their nursery is outside and that lessens the risk of infection of Covid-19.

I put on my mask.

They had sanitized the carts as they came back and people were at least 6 feet away from each other and no one touched their faces.

A covid paradise.

I got to walk around near other humans, who were all wrapped in masks for about 15 minutes!

The sunshine on my skin, so many plants to look at and smell. I could plan something even if it is just my garden.

I could just feel the sunlight, the warmth for a moment with people. Soaking the sun into my skin, I could feel the very tip of my joy returning.

I have missed this so much

Oh and I bought hedge clippers. The good ones. Not the biggest ones, but as my love says, they finger removers.

When I got home with my haul I immediately went to town on the hedge betweenour place and the neighbor’s place. You know, the fucking overgrown thing that I’ve been looking for weeks in disgust.

I chopped the crap out of it with so much ease I almost didn’t stop. Almost.

It was sooooooo satisfying!

And then I went inside and drank and ice cold glass of water and kissed my love.

And I felt good.

Uniequivocably good. For a little while I worried about nothing. Just happiness vitamin D on my skin and chilled.

The world still exists and for a day I just felt good.

This is a rae day. I have been doing my practices and getting out to the garden. I’m privileged AF to not have to go to work in a place with other humans. And we got a blow up hot tub set up just in the nick of time!

Privilege. And I’m feeling it.

I have massive gratitude for essential folks: grocery sotre workers, deliveyr drivers, healthcare workers and all the folks out there working. 

And also love to all the folks who have lost jobs and family and friends to Covid-19. It’s a lot.

Sending you tons of love!

Join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 10 – Trolls and Georgia is Re-opening? with Dalia Kinsey

EP 10 – Trolls and Georgia is Re-opening? with Dalia Kinsey

Ep. 10: Fatphobia, Trolls and … GeorgIA? with Dalia Kinsey!

Dalia Kiney and Briana talk Fatphobia, Trolls and Georgia

Dalia Kinsey joins us again this week!

This week really focus on:

Our week. How things are going podcasting in the times of pandemic

how Covid is affecting Dalia and I.

And then we talk about trolls. We are looking for a guest to come on and talk about trolls! Is that you? Reach out to us! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod


And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Dalia Kinsey joins us again this week!

This week really focus on:

Our week. How things are going podcasting in the times of pandemic

how Covid is affecting Dalia and I.

And then we talk about trolls. We are looking for a guest to come on and talk about trolls! Is that you? Reach out to us! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FatGirlFindsLovePod


And join us in the community! Fat Girls Finds Love FB group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/fatgirlfindslove/

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 08 – Fat Body  Pilates with Lindsey Strobel

EP 08 – Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel

Ep. 7: Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel!

Lindsey Strobel,

…the brains and bod behind Fat Body Pilates, was introduced to the concept of fat acceptance on Livejournal in the late 90s. Discovering a movement that didn’t view her body as something to apologize for was incredibly affirming, and she has remained connected to the cause across a variety of social media platforms and in her local Minneapolis/St. Paul community.


Lindsey began practicing Pilates in 2016 at the suggestion of a physical therapist and quickly recognized the benefits of the method, despite a culture that struck her as exclusive of individuals in larger bodies. In 2017 she began her Pilates teacher training through Balanced Body. Her Fat Body Pilates Instagram account was created in 2019 in response to the lack of body diversity in Pilates imagery. 


Show notes: Fat Body Pilates with Lindsey Strobel!


In her free time, when she’s not on her reformer forgetting to count her repetitions, Lindsey can be found curled up with her cats, a cup of tea, and a good book, gardening, or traveling with her partner. Follow her on Instagram: @fatbodypilates

In this episode we talk about:
– How she found her fat identity 

– Fatshionistas on Livejournal

– How she got started in pilates

– She and her husband doing pilates

– How pilates is set up for thin people

– How lineage contributes to thin gaze and the idea that this is only for thin people

– Lindsey being an example of a fat person who is doing the work

– Financial privilege in being able to go to classes regularly and working to change access for more bodies in pilates

– Using her body to show people that more is possible with pilates, and fatness!

Transcript coming soon!

Most people learn about new podcasts throughfriends. So please share the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast with your fellow podcasters on twitter. If this episode got you all fired up SUBSCRIBE wherever you get your podcasts! ONE CLICK!


You can ask your questions continue the conversation and meet your fellow Fat Girl Finds Love Community members, by simply joining the Fat Girl Finds Love Podcast Facebook Group!

EP 10 – Trolls and Georgia is Re-opening? with Dalia Kinsey

EP 05 – Fat Sex-cation – BDSM, Kink, Power play and Relationship Anarchy – Tonya

Ep 5 – LIVE From Desire: Tonya! BDSM, Kink, Power play and Relationship Anarchy

 The Fat Sex Series!  Interview from Fat Sex-cation!

Fat and Disabled BDSM, Kink, Power play and Relationship Anarchy

It says it’s part 2 but we don’t know where part 1 went so… yeah. Here’s the juicy stories about playing in the dungeon!

Tonya is a fat women relationship anarchist who lives in Florida.

You’ll also get to hear a little bit about playing with me and my love!

“I want fat people to feel good and feel like they are just as entitled to feeling good in their bodies and sexually as anyone else, including as entitled as sexist and people.” Briana Cavanaugh

Show notes: Fat Sex Series!Sex-cation,BDSM, Kink, Power play and Relationship Anarchy! Guest interview Interview with Tonya from Jacksonville, Florida!

It says it’s part 2 but we don’t know where part 1 went so… yeah. Here’s the juicy stories about playing in the dungeon! (Yes BDSM and Kink! And Power play!)

Tonya is a fat women relationship anarchist who lives in Florida.

We talk about:

-What is relationship anarchy
– “I don’t want to limit or try to define any relationship.” Tonya
– Some of my relationships are defined. I have a husband. We’ve been together 13 years.
– “And if my friends, John and Joe, who have been together for 20 ****ing years, if they can’t get married, I’m not going to get married because it’s bullshit. And then of course, as soon as gay marriage happened, everybody asks me, Tanya, when are you getting married? I’m like, **** you. I’m not getting married. I’m just not getting married. And then we got married.”

– Dungeon night!

– Community and staying connected through out the year!
– An anal fisting scene
– A little bit of sex magic!
– How we deal with having different level of safer sex protection levels.
– Feeling honored in our safer sex conversations
– HSV and how Tonya talks about genital herpes.
– Safer sex testing and privilege
– STI and other risky behavior
– STIs can be treated
– Questions to ask yourself before going out into sexy situations, dungeons, BDSM!
– “I want fat people to feel good and feel like they are just as entitled to feeling good in their bodies and sexually as anyone else, including as entitled as sexist and people.”
A lot about how awesome Tristan Taoromino sexoutloud.com podcast – she’s amazing!
References to Cooper and Dylan from Life on the Swingset.
– A lot of details about squiriting and being in service to the goddess that is Tristan Taromino.
– Most women do not have orgasms from penetration alone!
– Talk to you partner about everything!!

– “So. Orgasm hasn’t been a focus for me for a really long time. I don’t really masturbate because I have carpal tunnel and my wrist and vibrators just weren’t doing it for me”

– Different kinds of orgasms!
– Kink and power play: We went to our area and got set up and she said, you’re going to sit here, and we discussed my body and what it can and can’t do,
– “and we talked about what her expectations were and that, you know, I was going to serve her and I call her ma’am and she was going to put me in a collar and was I okay with that?”
– Collar is one of the signifiers of power play. Very hot and very kinky!
– “And she was adamant, absolutely adamant that at any point, if I became physically uncomfortable or had any pain or any issues with anything. I was to let her know immediately and she said, because if you can’t serve me in the way that I need to be served, then that displeases me.”

– “I’m not real good with measurement, you know, I mean, men, my whole life had been telling me this is eight inches.”

– “That you can have all these connections and all these different ways and they, they don’t look like, you know, what, what mainstream people, you know, connections are kind of quote unquote supposed to look like.”

Episode 8 Tonya – BDSM, Kink, Power play and Relationship Anarchy Transcript

[00:00:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:00] Welcome to extraordinary, the podcast where plus size and fat people come to learn about making extraordinary choices and meeting extraordinary people. I’m your host, Briana Cavanaugh. Okay. So this is the continuation of the recording with Tonya. We’re at desire. It’s a, what is it? Wednesday. And we talked about health.

[00:00:23] We are now going to talk about relationship configuration. So Tanya, you talked about in the beginning that you identify as relationship anarchist. So tell us about your relationship configuration and how you discovered your. Like how you came to be open really should be anarchist and like that.

[00:00:42] Tonya : [00:00:42] Okay.

[00:00:43] So my husband and I have been together 13 years. We’ve been open from day one. Um, I have never specifically said until the last few years, never specifically said I was non-monogamous or anything like that. It was [00:01:00] just for us how it worked in the beginning was he. Felt he was a late bloomer. So he felt that he’d missed out on a lot of experience that he thought other men had had.

[00:01:12] So he essentially didn’t want to commit and settle down. I was fine for me, cause I wasn’t looking for that. We started off as just a, I didn’t have anything better to do and I wasn’t getting laid. But I have had pretty much the agreement in every relationship in my adult life that I am into women. And I will not give up *****.

[00:01:37] For you or anyone. So you have a problem with me. ****ing women then get out. And of course, you know, most men are into that, you know, they’re like, Oh, we’re going to have a threesome. And that’s essentially how we operated for a long time. I wanted to **** women, most of whom were just my friends, and we’d had that kind of relationship and they would be into him.

[00:01:59] So we [00:02:00] had a lot of threesomes, had a lot of **** buddies. Um, but then. All of our playmates essentially paired off and became monogamous. So we didn’t have any playmates anymore. So I was like, well, dating is a pain in the ass. I hate it. It’s so much effort. I don’t have the time. I don’t have the energy. So we decided, well, you know, we could just be swingers,

[00:02:25] and I’ve always, I’ve been consuming like it’s air.Sexuality and relationship podcasts for, I dunno, years now. Um, I think I started in like 2011 and during one of those podcasts I heard them talk about relationship anArchy and how, you know, you just, it’s not a hierarchy. You don’t necessarily label relationships. The, the relationships are just whatever they are.

[00:02:57] You might be a friend one day you might be a lover the [00:03:00] next day you might be a friend. The next day you might be like family. You know, it just, it’s fluid. It happens. I don’t want to limit or try to define any relationship. Some of my relationships are defined. I have a husband. We’ve been together 13 years.

[00:03:17] We’ve been married in January. Four three we only got married because he needed health insurance. You know, not neither one of us ever wanted to get married cause it’s just, I think it’s an outdated institution that is just unnecessary, you know? And for a long time, my hardline was. I am not going to get married until everyone can get married because that’s ****ing privileged bullshit.

[00:03:45] And if my friends, John and Joe, who have been together for 20 ****ing years, if they can’t get married, I’m not going to get married because it’s bullshit. And then of course, [00:04:00] as soon as gay marriage happened, everybody asks me, Tanya, when are you getting married? I’m like, **** you. I’m not getting married.

[00:04:05] I’m just not getting married. And then we got married. So my husband, you know, he was my boyfriend before that. I would have heard him occasionally as my partner, because when you’re an adult, it sounds ridiculous sometimes to say boyfriend. So there’s him. We also have another partner, has a girlfriend that he met on OkCupid when I was going out with an old friend of mine that I was spending the night with, cause I intended to **** him and I’m like, you should find a date for yourself.

[00:04:35] And so he went on OkCupid, met. This girl who lives in Berlin but is from the States and was visiting her family. So he linked me her profile and I was like, Oh ****, I want to meet her. She’s also fat and fabulous and gorgeous and amazing. And if you listen to this Diva, I love you. Um, we’re coming up on a, I’d have to [00:05:00] dig through my calendar.

[00:05:00] Seven years, I think, since we met in December. So there’s her. And we see her once a year because maybe twice a year, but she lives in Berlin. And then I have a girlfriend that we’re coming up on one year since we met also on OkCupid. These people I met, not because I was looking for someone to date, it was just a chance thing and that just kind of, she and I.

[00:05:28] It was like lust at first sight. Like, did I mention that? Ask. I think that might be part of the road. Oh my God. My girlfriend has got this ass that big. Yeah. Like I like big butts, sir. Mix-a-lot where, you know, we’re like this. So she and I have been dating since mid-December, and she is a single mom at the time.

[00:05:56] She had a partner that lived, I live in Jacksonville, [00:06:00] Florida, and she had a male partner that lived in Atlanta. Um, their relationship ended, uh, roughly two months ago. Uh, she and I see each other a couple of few times a week. And then for a short while, a couple of months ago, my husband and I also had a girlfriend.

[00:06:21] That we didn’t share. We met her crazily enough, completely independent of each other, and it turned out we were both talking to the same chip. Like I’d gone out of town and I came back and he’s like, Oh, I was talking to this, to this chicken. Um, and tried to get her to have dinner with me, but she was working, but we’re still gonna try to get together.

[00:06:41] And I’m like, Oh, what chick? So I went to OkCupid to look, and then I had a message from this chick that I’ve been talking to and I was like, Oh, I forgot about her, cause I had just gone out of town. And so I was talking to her and he looked over my shoulder and he’s like, yeah, that’s her. So I was like, Oh.

[00:06:56] And you know, it, it seemed like, you know, [00:07:00] we were very well matched. And so for about a month, month and a half. We were both seeing her together, you know, um. It was almost a unicorn kind of situation. She was in a complicated relationship situation around that partly ultimately led to me ending that romantic relationship with her, but mostly just because we weren’t compatible in the ways that I needed us to be.But he is still seeing her and that’s working out. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s fine. I don’t, I don’t interfere in his relationships because we have, he, I don’t know how he defines himself. It’s not something, it’s just part of our life. We don’t, you know, sit down and try to label, well, what exactly are we, you know, we’re just, it’s just whatever we’re essentially relationship.

[00:07:57] And our guests [00:08:00] just not necessarily by design, but just by, um, by structure or by, if there’s like a phrase, I can’t think of you. And by default, I guess you could say, although really when I learned about it, that’s pretty much how I am because I don’t like to put labels on things like I don’t want to define them so.

[00:08:21] That’s pretty much where we are with relationships. However, through Desire, since Desire last year, I have met other folks who are definitely friends and sometimes lovers, always friends. That’s, I mean that’s really the key is that we are close and intimate and I think you can be intimate with them without sex, you know?

[00:08:51] Briana cavanaugh: [00:08:51] Absolutely.

[00:08:52] Tonya : [00:08:52] And platonic intimacy doesn’t get the recognition that it deserves because I can [00:09:00] smuggle up and cuddle with you and we can be close and intimate how we can even kiss and make out without ever having sex. You know, people take anything that’s sexual and they want to put it on a pedestal and make that the Mark.

[00:09:16] And it doesn’t have to be. You know?

[00:09:18] Briana cavanaugh: [00:09:18] Right. We idealize, um, kind of partnerships really. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:23] Tonya : [00:09:23] And, and longterm relationships. You know, I listened to Dan Savage and he, he’s always right. He says a lot of things that pisses me right the **** off. But he says a lot of things that I agree with, like, you know, short term relationships are not failures.

[00:09:40] Short term relationships have value.

[00:09:43] Briana cavanaugh: [00:09:43] Yes.

[00:09:43] Tonya : [00:09:43] You know, every. Single interaction you have with someone. However, short or however long is a relationship because it is two people relating to each other, you know, and there are all different kinds of ways you can relate to [00:10:00] people. So, and it’s all valid and it all has meaning.

[00:10:05] One night stand, a chance encounter, you know, you shared something in those moments, good or bad, you know, maybe it’s a life lesson and you’re like, I’m never doing that again. Or maybe it leads to something, you know, like what I feel that we have here meeting. You two. Last year was amazing. I love seeing you come up in my Facebook feed and it has molded my attitudes and thoughts about so many things that have evolved and being with the people here, I’ve made so many connections that even if we don’t **** each other brains out or whatever here, those connections are going to last and I want to foster them.

[00:10:49] Going forward. And to me, that’s

[00:10:51] Briana cavanaugh: [00:10:51] community.

[00:10:52] Tonya : [00:10:52] It’s community. And that’s ultimately what relationship and Archy is to me. You know, it’s not monogamy is if [00:11:00] one, two people, whether it’s a man and a woman or a man and a man, a woman, a woman, or, or anything in between. And they are each others. Everything, and they fulfill all of their needs.

[00:11:12] And I don’t believe in all that the one and a soul mate, I mean, you can have soulmates, but that’s not the end all, be all. You know, you don’t have. You don’t have just one level of love for one family member and you don’t love the rest of your family.

[00:11:28] Briana cavanaugh: [00:11:28] No. It’s very idealized. My personal opinion is, you know, kind of looking historically the, we, we’ve only recently idealized kind of romantic partnership.

[00:11:38] You know, there’s always been like, you know, you live with your family and your extended family and your community because it takes a lot of people to make, to make stuff go right. Yeah. Was it Jocques that was talking about somebody made a, a chicken sandwich from scratch and it took six months and cost 12 $12,000 or something like that.

[00:11:56] Cause, you know, growing the seeds and raising the chickens and [00:12:00] like, you know, it’s, it’s a lot to do all of this, you know, all the things that takes to, yeah. Right it. And it’s the same with, you know, humans and relationships. We. I did an episode about connection. Actually one of the three episodes, it’s up there now is about connection and about how connection is the thing that we need to be in order to be well emotionally well is that we need other people.

[00:12:21] We have open loop, limbic system. Yes. We’re hanging on my bed and we, yeah, we’re reconfiguring the pillows.

[00:12:28] Tonya : [00:12:28] Yes. In this particular case, yes, and they’re great pillows. Yeah. Desire has wonderful pillows, the Bedser and inconsistent, but the pillows are all on may day.

[00:12:42] Briana cavanaugh: [00:12:42] Oh. One of the things about the beds is that they have the basis of, many of them are cement because it floods and they don’t want the beds to flow.

[00:12:50] Flood away said, let me tell you,

[00:12:52] Tonya : [00:12:52] your bed is way better than my bed. Is it? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, it’s your bed is soft. Mine is. [00:13:00] Yours. Your bed is, it’s firm. It’s still soft minus just firm. And when I wake up every day, I’m stiff.

[00:13:08] Briana cavanaugh: [00:13:08] I’m sorry.

[00:13:09] Tonya : [00:13:09] It’s not uncomfortable necessarily, but I like  or . Well, I’m usually not sleeping in the bed, usually.

[00:13:20] Actually, have I done? No, I have done stuff in beds, but I’ve been doing stuff and other furniture. Yeah.

[00:13:30] Briana cavanaugh: [00:13:30] Here there’s, there’s dungeon and there’s beds around the hot tub, and there’s, yeah. Gosh, chairs and,

[00:13:37] Tonya : [00:13:37] and even the bed I was on last night was. Six of those cubes. Tension straps up in the dungeon top.

[00:13:47] Everyone. Yeah, I do have an appointment on a beach bed tomorrow afternoon though. Oh, that sounds fun. I’ve never been in a bee suit.

[00:13:55] Briana cavanaugh: [00:13:55] Tell me about your adventures here. So was last year your first [00:14:00] year?

[00:14:00] Tonya : [00:14:00] Last year was my first year. And I had some great adventures and we had a great adventure. We did, and it was in the same room, right yet was in this room, in this very room on this very bad,

[00:14:12] Briana cavanaugh: [00:14:12] and there were five of us, or five of us.

[00:14:14] That was my first five. Some I was, it was all kid time. Yeah. It was our first, our first five five for the first five, and I was just talking to, I was caught talking to Cooper S Beckett earlier today, and since he has a podcast, I feel good about talking about him dropping his name.

[00:14:32] Tonya : [00:14:32] Yeah. Right. And we were talking about how.

[00:14:35] Briana cavanaugh: [00:14:35] Having odd numbers of people can be really good because then you have an extra set of hands, right? Like if you’re, you know, doing the kind of traditional good,

[00:14:44] Tonya : [00:14:44] it can be bad. It’s, I mean, it can be a lot of things, but I was sharing, very enjoying our interactions. It was great time. I believe there’s some video out there of the good time I was having.

[00:14:56] Briana cavanaugh: [00:14:56] That’s right. We had a great time [00:15:00] and. And as a result of meeting last year, we, uh, have been in touch throughout the year. Yeah. And, and are like friends and stuff. Yeah.

[00:15:09] Tonya : [00:15:09] Like legit friend, like legit, like we talk outside of seeing each other once he let me talk, you know, via chat. But yeah, I don’t talk to anybody on the phone anymore.

[00:15:19] Who the **** does that? So 1990s.

[00:15:25] Briana cavanaugh: [00:15:25] I mean, so, but you’ve, you have other adventures. Oh, yes, yes. Tell just maybe you could tell me all stories you wouldn’t tell me about last night and the dungeon. So one night of, one night of this week that we do the sex vacation is a dungeon night. And, uh, that was last night.

[00:15:45] Tell their stories, Tanya.

[00:15:46] Tonya : [00:15:46] Well, let me tell you first the story of my day two in which I had more sex with more people in day two than I did all of the entire week. Last year,

[00:16:04] [00:16:00] um, I had a threesome in the afternoon, which did not involve any PIV. That’s penis and vagina for the, um,

[00:16:14] Briana cavanaugh: [00:16:14] as yet uninitiated well.

[00:16:16] Tonya : [00:16:16] I didn’t

[00:16:16] want to say on initiated, but yeah, and really I, all I had to do was lie there and enjoy myself. So produce a lot of fluids.

[00:16:29] Briana cavanaugh: [00:16:29] Oh, wait and I some type of squirting workshop?

[00:16:32] Tonya : [00:16:32] No, no, this was, this was the squirting workshop was.

[00:16:35] Yesterday morning, this was on Sunday, Sunday afternoon after we had all the lovely make outs in the pool, I went off with one of those couples to their room and they put their hands and fists into my vagina and made me expel liquids. And then, um, my, and then his Cock went and my mouth, and then, and my fingers and his button, he was [00:17:00] more interested in my fingers in his butt than my cock and his mouth.

[00:17:03] And then. Almost my whole hand was in his ass, but we had to back off a little bit. And uh, we need to revisit that before the week ends. So that was great fun. And there was a, there was a lube puppet. That was a very interesting, that’s only a bit. So we use the stuff called J lube. Which apparently is powdered lube used for birthing calves?

[00:17:35] Well, she got overexcited, he was on his knees and she got over excited and just dumped a huge mound of this powdered lube on his ass and then was just pouring water over it and it gets really sticky and it kind of looks and feels like snot and sticks to your hands. So there was like the hand puppet.

[00:17:55] Motion with lube and yeah, it was, it was [00:18:00] gross and entertaining. Apparently you are not supposed to get it in your *****. They said many, many times do not get this in your *****.

[00:18:09] So one time

[00:18:10] Briana cavanaugh: [00:18:10] I, years ago now. Um, yeah, and it was almost impossible to get out because it’s, the thing is it gets more lobe-y with more fluids.

[00:18:21] We have more water and I was just like, what the ****? Why did you put this in here anyway, permanent loop. I was like, this is terrible. I’m like, I kept like. I’m pulling it out by the fistful. It was not, um,

[00:18:32] Tonya : [00:18:32] It was gross.

[00:18:33] Briana cavanaugh: [00:18:33] I was kind of gross in that way. But, but the play up until then had been quite fun and satisfying.

[00:18:39] Tonya : [00:18:39] And this was at the end, and it was. You know, we were just laughing. There was a lot of laughter, which I love. Laughter during sex. Yeah. Sex is fun. Lots of fun. Yeah. It should all be fine. Yeah. That was in the afternoon. Oh,

[00:18:56] Briana cavanaugh: [00:18:56] so hold on. So moral of the story. Don’t put J when your *****.

[00:19:00] [00:18:59] Tonya : [00:18:59] Yes. Do not do that. And don’t.

[00:19:02] Pour a big pilot just for water that’s going to get everywhere and they mix up properly and all of that. Otherwise it’s going to totally impromptu, which, you know, anal fisting really shouldn’t be anyways, but you know, we were going with them. So that was in the afternoon. And then I went and had dinner and blah, blah, blah, and somehow in the, Oh, the girl orgy was supposed to be on the rooftop.

[00:19:29] Next hot tub, but it decided to downpour. So the new location was one of these fancy schmancy suites over here that have the pool and the hot tub

[00:19:41] Briana cavanaugh: [00:19:41] and one of the big sweet she is.

[00:19:43] Tonya : [00:19:43] So girl orgy didn’t happen, but we all sat around and, and talked for a long time. And then all of the ladies got, or female bodied persons.

[00:19:57] Since I can’t think of everybody’s pronouns or [00:20:00] whatever in this moment, we all got in the pool and we were jumping in the pool and bouncing our ***ties. With our there are hands in the air and talking about calling the corners. And someone looked out the window and was laughing at us and I’m like, you’ve heard of devil, vagina magic.

[00:20:15] This is pool boob magic calling the corners. So that was fun. And then we went inside.


[00:20:22] Briana cavanaugh: [00:20:22] So there’s some, there’s some sex magic happening. –

[00:20:25] Tonya : [00:20:25] And then, uh, so a couple of the ladies who had come for their Gore, who had joined us for the girl, or gee, that didn’t happen,

[00:20:35] Briana cavanaugh: [00:20:35] have to make the decision between join and come.

[00:20:38] Tonya : [00:20:38] Well spotted. They laughed. And then next thing I know, there are seven people in the room. And, uh, we’re ****ing in various forms. There was some, or I think seven. Cause there were that couple and that couple and me [00:21:00] and that couple came. The couple I played with earlier in that Oh one the, the female, half of that couple was already there.

[00:21:08] And then she went to get the male part. So two, three couples and me. So seven. So I had my first, I mean, essentially it was a seven-some, you know, we weren’t all ****ing each other, but we were, you know, bouncing back. We were changing stage, you know, this **** went to that *****, to that mouth and you know, so everybody had a good time.

[00:21:34] Good time was had by all. Yes, yes, yes.

[00:21:36] Briana cavanaugh: [00:21:36] Important in these situations, like, yes, I feel like it’s easy for. This kind of thing to go awry. Like I think there’s lots of stories about, Oh, you know, this is hard and that’s hard. And the other thing is hard, and sometimes it’s good, hard as good. Um, but, but I think here more often than not, I hear about people having a good time in all of [00:22:00] these different configurations and having it not be drama.

[00:22:03] And I feel like I don’t very often hear about, you know, being super dramatic and. Well, you could analyze that more another time. But I really enjoy that people are, you know, they’re self-responsible and safer sex conversations are the norm.

[00:22:19] Tonya : [00:22:19] And in both of these characters, we, at the beginning, we had the, the STI, safer sex talk and talked about barriers and, and stuff.

[00:22:31] And it was, it was all good. It was just very, very quick. And. And then, you know, we were adults and you know, we had adult fun and everything was fine,

[00:22:41] Briana cavanaugh: [00:22:41] and people make choices, right? You have your super conversation and then you make, make choices about what, you know, how you want to play and what you want to do.

[00:22:47] And, um, I know that, um, my sweetheart and I played with a couple earlier today and we have different [00:23:00] levels of safer sex practices that we normally do. And I, I just want to talk about this for a minute, cause I feel like, you know, we’re talking about all of this sex and I just wanna mention, say for sex, um, you know, and, and how that works or how, you know, one of the possible configurations.

[00:23:14] So, um, the couple that we played with, they. They tend to, and I’m not using names, so you have no idea who I’m talking about, but they tend to not use barriers for oral sex. But Jacques and I do 10 you know, that’s one of our agreements, is that we use barriers for oral sex. And so when they play with us, they use barriers.

[00:23:34] And last year there was a little conversation and it wasn’t stressful at all, but there was a little conversation and I’m like, Oh, maybe they won’t want to play with us because we use barriors. But as it turned out this year, they brought their own. Like dental dams. And I was like super thrilled. It felt very honoring that other people were like, Oh yeah, this is how they play.

[00:23:51] And so we want to play with them. And so, you know, we bring our toys and we all play together and yeah.

[00:23:57] Tonya : [00:23:57] And that same couple, I played with them last year, [00:24:00] and also they were a part of this, the group of seven, um, on sunday night. Yeah. Yeah. So very, very good people. And I feel like it’s, there’s a lot of.

[00:24:12] Briana cavanaugh: [00:24:12] I guess ease and grace in this process where here at least it feels like people are really assuming the best about each other and really mutually supportive and it’s very delicious.

[00:24:24] Tonya : [00:24:24] Yeah, and I had a safer sex discussion with somebody in the pool, you know, before we make made out. And I’m HSV two positive, which is typically um, genital herpes. But I’ve never had an outbreak. I had cold sores when I was a child, you know, but not since I was 11 or 12, never in my adult life. And so many people have one form of HSV, or though I don’t have HSV one, which is typically oral. But you know, when you discuss that, so many people have HSV and don’t know it because they’ve never had an outbreak.

[00:25:00] [00:24:59] I’ve, and I know for, yeah, absolutely. Never been tested. So we were discussing that. And the thing is, I have not had a test since before last year because it’s expensive, you know? And there is a level of privilege that is involved with getting tested regularly. And I totally believe in doing it. And you know, if it were lower costs or if it was free, ****ing get tested all the time.

[00:25:23] But unfortunately, I don’t have that capability. So, um, we just

[00:25:28] Briana cavanaugh: [00:25:28] Some test

[00:25:28] are easier

[00:25:29] to get like, yeah. Like HIV tests, very easy to get. Yeah. It just be tests much harder and much more expensive,

[00:25:36] Tonya : [00:25:36] much more expensive. And sometimes you have to really, you almost have to bully the doctors and the saying, look, I want this ****ing test, you know, because I consider myself high risk, you know, cause I do because I can see  people.

[00:25:48] Briana cavanaugh: [00:25:48] Yeah. Yeah. You know, and one of the ways that we take care of ourselves, those of us who like to have sex with multiple partners, whether it’s, you know, you know, one to a 50 whatever, is that we get [00:26:00] tested and we use barriers and we take care of ourselves and each other

[00:26:03] Tonya : [00:26:03] and we ha, and so the person I was discussing this with, I mentioned, I’m like, I’m sorry, I haven’t been tested since last year.

[00:26:09] And he said, the fact that you have an awareness about your status and that you are comfortable talking about it. And your risk level really tells me all I need to know. You know, because U S even if you know, I told you. I was just tested and I tested negative for everything. You know, certain amount of time ago there’s, and you know, whether I’ve had partners between them or whether I have not had partners.

[00:26:37] There is still, with every sexual act, with or without a barrier, there is some level of risk, right? Because barriers protect against some things and don’t protect against others, and some things are more difficult to use than others. There are all sorts of risks, but you know what? The risks aren’t all S there’s a risk of [00:27:00] you might have the flu or a cold or strep throat or something else contagious, you know, that has nothing to do with any kind of barrier practice, but we didn’t talk about that.

[00:27:12] You know, we don’t talk about, Oh, I was just sneezing my head off for three hours this morning and woke up all full of snot. And you know, I could give you something that could turn into pneumonia, but God ****ing forbid there’s something wrong with our genitals. And you know, Mo, there are things that are serious that happened.

[00:27:31] Hepatitis is very bad. Syphilis can be very bad. HIV can be very bad. But. With the drugs and the technology that we have now, none of them necessarily have to be a death sentence. They are, and that’s why the vocabulary has changed from STD, which is sexually transmitted diseases to sexually transmitted infections [00:28:00] because infections can be treated, infections can be cured, you know?

[00:28:06] Some of the things go away themselves. I have had an HPV infection. I didn’t have words. I didn’t have the strain that caused cancer. I hadn’t on, uh, an abnormal pap and all I had was some cervical dysplasia. They took a biopsy and I said it was HPV. I don’t remember what strain it was. And then that’s the only abnormal pap I’ve ever had because my body cleared it.

[00:28:32] You know, I didn’t have to do anything. So everything involved. common. Yeah. And that’s very, everything in life involves a level of risk.

[00:28:42] Briana cavanaugh: [00:28:42] And I wouldn’t say something about HPV, which is that there are tests for women, but there are no tests for penis having people. And so there’s a lot of stigma about HPV.

[00:28:55] I think partly cause it’s genital words and like some of the strains cause genital warts and there’s that. [00:29:00] But there’s also like. The burden of HPV is entirely on women because there are no tests for men. And, uh, I don’t even know what to do about that, but I just want someone to be like, yep, we’re making an HPV test for men.

[00:29:14] Tonya : [00:29:14] I think, I mean, HPV can cause cancer a lot of things. Things cause cancer. Cancer is an evil motherfucker. And of course, we don’t know. Want to open the door and welcome it. We want to prevent it where we can.

[00:29:26] Briana cavanaugh: [00:29:26] Yeah.

[00:29:27] Tonya : [00:29:27] You know, but it’s, I, like I said, everything has risks. Driving a vehicle has a risk. Flying in a plane has a rescue walking out your front ****ing door has a rescue, can slip and fall and hit your head open and you’re dead.

[00:29:41] Briana cavanaugh: [00:29:41] But the important part of the risk is. Is something called risk assessment. Exactly. And then, and then deciding like how much risk is okay. Because some people are okay with some risk and some people are okay with a lot of risks. And one of the ways we know that is that teenagers are often okay with a lot of risk.

[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Right? And some of us as we age are, are okay with less risks. And so the conversation earlier where like Jocques and I use barriers for oral sex and the other couple doesn’t. That is entirely about risk assessment. One of the conversations is there’s no, there’s no moral value. It doesn’t make either of us better or worse or anything.

[00:30:20] Tonya : [00:30:20] And it’s just the level of risk you’re willing to take. And.

[00:30:24] Briana cavanaugh: [00:30:24] Individually, but also it’s a level of risk that Jack and I agreed on. Right? And so as part of respecting our partnership, right, this is what we decided that we wanted to do. And so, so that’s what we do. And I, and I feel like. It’s not about, Oh, you should do a certain amount of thing because lots of people want to, you know, like for example, they get into new relationships and they immediately want to get rid of their barrier protection for sex.

[00:30:50] And you know, you could do that or not do that or whatever. But the point is to have a real assessment about whether that’s something that’s actually going to work for your [00:31:00] physical and emotional health. Because there is, you know, in addition to the physical health of like, you could transmit or receive an infection.

[00:31:08] Like the other piece of risk assessment is how do you feel about that? Right? When you think about what happens if you catch something or transmit something, because if you can catch it, you can give it and you can give it before, you know. So again, like disease transmission or infection transmission is not a moral issue, right?

[00:31:27] It’s an, it’s an like. If you can catch a cold, you can give a cold right before, you know it’s happening. And so instead of this moral idea that like, Oh, only dirty people get chlamydia or so, whatever, whatever, whatever. It’s like, we really need to look at, you know, are we okay with our level of risk and are we going to be able to take care of it and manage it?

[00:31:47] You know, do we have good enough health care to be able to get the tests and do the things? And it’s, you know, I feel like it’s more complicated than, you know, what, it feel really good to use a condom or not use a condom right.

[00:31:58] Tonya : [00:31:58] Sure.

[00:31:59] And so [00:32:00] anyway, it’s a complicated conversation that I want to encourage people to really do some research about so that you’re not caught off guard and that when you go to these situations, you’re ready so that you can have a good time.

[00:32:11] Briana cavanaugh: [00:32:11] Right. And that’s the goal ultimately. Right. Of having sex is it have a good time? And I know that there’s this moralistic stance that like the whole idea that, um, having sex is about having, did you want to say something? Jocques. Jocques opened his mouth. I thought he might be ready to speak on podcasts, but no, no.

[00:32:31] Tonya : [00:32:31] He’s like, Oh my God, he’s, and then he started making terrified faces that we were going to try to force them to talk . Currently silent, silent partner,

[00:32:42] Briana cavanaugh: [00:32:42] silent to the audience, and ms. Uh, but, but the idea, uh, or you’re talking about the moralistic idea that, that the reason to have sex is have children like that I know that there’s a moralistic thing about that, but it’s not, that’s not the biology of sex. [00:33:00] Right?

[00:33:00] Like the reason that people want to have sex is, is partly to reproduce, but also because it feels good. So, and part of the conversation about fat sex for me is that I want fat people to feel good and feel like they are just as entitled to feeling good in their bodies and sexually as anyone else, including as entitled as sexist and people.

[00:33:24] Absolutely. And so the conversation around desire, like I started. Talking to one of the hosts on just out Dylan as well as other outing people. I mean, they have a podcast and you know, they’ve talked some about this and about fat and sex. And so we feel good about that. And we decided to make a fat and accessibility, uh, channel on our, on our chat to talk about this kind of stuff.

[00:33:46] Cause I was like, Hey, this, this is not like, I really want this to be more fat focus, fat centered, fat, inclusive. And so we began to have conversations about that. And as that’s happened, [00:34:00] people like come out of the woodwork, out of the woodwork to have these conversations and fat people come out to talk about it.

[00:34:07] And then our thinner allies like Justin and others have come to me and been like, Oh, I have these great resources for you. So hopefully you’ll be hearing a lot more from all of these amazing, like fat centered sex positive resources. I was all a long. Yeah. Anyway, I think it’s important and I feel like, I think it’s important to say like every single time we talk about sex, to talk about safer sex and, and so that, you know, we get both sides of it, we get the pleasure and we get the responsibility.

[00:34:40] Cause I think both of those things are. Are important.

[00:34:43] Tonya : [00:34:43] I actually am not a fan of the term safer sex. I like risk aware, so, and it’s like with kink risk aware, consensual kink in a rack. You know, it’s, I like putting you on the rack. Okay.

[00:34:59]Briana cavanaugh: [00:34:59] [00:35:00] So I know even when we want you to tell the stories about Tristan, do you want to tell the stories of a podcast about your experience last night?

[00:35:05] Tonya : [00:35:05] Oh yeah, we didn’t get to that dude. Wait, let’s talk about that. Okay, so how much time do we have so I can know how much I need to bridge the story because I could, I was in the dungeon for. I dunno, four hours. I could literally take about four hours.


[00:35:22] Briana cavanaugh: [00:35:22] Tell me the story minute by minute by minute. What did we did like another 10 or 15 minutes.

[00:35:28] Okay. Okay. So maybe pick your top like three stories.

[00:35:32] Tonya : [00:35:32] Well, to sum up, it started before the dungeon because I served last year. Oh yeah. Definitely started. Oh my gosh. But again, that’s another thing that would take forever. So. I actually, I’ve been a huge fan and follower of Tristan Taramino for a long, long, long time.

[00:35:52] And Tristin has, excuse me. Yes. Sex out lab, sexoutloud.com. I think. I don’t, I don’t ever [00:36:00] go to the website cause it’s just in my, it’s in my podcast app. Awesome. We love . She’s the best. She’s amazing. Um, and she knows it as well. She should. So, so I’ve been following her a long time. And Tristan is the reason that I am swingset because I’ve been listening to the swingset podcasts for years and heard all the live of recordings that desire.

[00:36:23] And every year when Cooper cries during his podcast about being with. His people and his tribe and how wonderful it is to be here. I would be at my work, listening to my podcast, sitting in my cubicle crying right along with him, knowing that these are my people and I need to be here. How to sweet, sensitive creature.

[00:36:43] He’s a good guy. I love, but then it was announced that Tristan, in 2017 it was announced that Tristan was going to be at desire. And I didn’t find out until September desires in November. I’m like, how the **** am I gonna come up with the money to get there? How many ****s do I have to suck? How much time do I [00:37:00] have?

[00:37:00] It’d be like 92 ****s a day or something.

[00:37:02] Briana cavanaugh: [00:37:02] So that is a lot. It’s a lot of tick. So I’m  above your, yeah,

[00:37:12] Tonya : [00:37:12] so I didn’t make it to desire in 2017 but then that was our first year. Yeah, well, I mean, I could have met you a year earlier if I’d suck them any ****s, but it just didn’t happen. And I don’t have that much blood to give.

[00:37:26] So her live recording desire podcasts didn’t come out till February. So it was in February when I found out, Oh my God, she’s going to be a Desire and 2018 I need to make this happen. I have many months. So I did the things and sucke the ****s and sold some blood and whatever, whatever. And. Got the money to come to desire because Tristan was here.

[00:37:48] So really it was, it was all about meaning Tristan. So I met Tristan, we had some great times together, and I thought we created a little bond, [00:38:00] but you know how it is. You meet people and things can be one sided. You know, I mean, you know, we all have our idols and our heroes and stuff, and you feel one way towards them, but they have a lot of people in their lives.

[00:38:13] They may not feel the same, sometimes they’ve never met you. And so they have no idea what the hell I’m talking about. So we, we met and we had spent some time together and it was sweet. It had a dungeon scene and it was wonderful. And then, and then

[00:38:26] Briana cavanaugh: [00:38:26] Tanya was like walking on clouds a story. It was so sweet.

[00:38:29] Tonya : [00:38:29] It was so cute to watch. I’m still walking on clouds from last year and of course this year. And then, you know, when she left the resort last year on the last day, she asked me for my phone number and I’m grinning. You can’t see it, but you can probably hear it. And I’m grinning the biggest ****ing grin because Tristan asked for my phone number.

[00:38:52] So she and I kept touch over the year and, and I actually saw her in Orlando a few months back. [00:39:00] And so we’ve kept in touch. And then this year, um. I volunteered to be the demo bottom for her G-spot and squirting demonstration yesterday morning. And prior to that she came to me and said that she would like me to serve her in the dungeon for,

[00:39:22] Briana cavanaugh: [00:39:22] for all of dungeon evening,

[00:39:25] Tonya : [00:39:25] for the whole evening. I was going to, well, even before yesterday, I had seen her at dinner and she said, am I gonna see you on the dungeon? I was like, well, you know, I thought I’d give other people a chance. And she said, **** that. So well, yes. Yes ma’am.

[00:39:40] Absolutely. If you want my presence in the dungeon apps, absolutely, I will be there. I mean, I was going to be there, but I was just going to watch. I’m so glad I did not do that. So she asked me if I would serve her. She said that we’ll do our scene first and then you’re going to be in my service for the rest of the evening, you know, fetching or whatever.

[00:39:57] I’m like, yes ma’am. Of course. And then she had the [00:40:00] G spot and squirting. Workshop and demo. And then, you know, she ****ed me and made me squirt in front of a room full of people. And how was that for you? Oh my God. So that was my first sexual experience with her. She and I had never been sexual prior to that.

[00:40:21] And it’s, you know, she’s just somebody I wanted to meet. I wanted to be in her room. Or bit, I mean, of course, leading up to it last year, I’m like, Oh my God, you guys, I’m going to go, if I just  I’m going trust to tear me up. I’m going to **** the entire swingset podcast. I’m gonna **** everybody. And of course that didn’t happen, but whatever.

[00:40:42] So, you know, Oh, I just very small side note. There’s somebody else in the room who has said before, I want to **** everyone.

[00:40:53] And he’s very cute, but he’s also very silent. Anyway. Well, very small side. So my [00:41:00] first sexual encounter with her was in front of everybody, and it was wonderful except that, and I don’t accept that as this isn’t, but what happened was I had an orgasm and she said, did you come without permission? And. And the thing is, I had my third ever G-spot orgasm without any clitoral stimulation.

[00:41:22] And the first was two days before. And when I was with that first couple in the afternoon and the, or the second rather. And then the first was only two weeks ago. So,

[00:41:34] Briana cavanaugh: [00:41:34] so this is a bunch of new experiences.

[00:41:36] Tonya : [00:41:36] Yes. Yes. New new experience.

[00:41:38] Briana cavanaugh: [00:41:38] So let’s pause. Let’s pause and, and just talk about that for a second, which is your 44 yes.

[00:41:46] To me. Just me. And even after being very sexual for a very long time. Right. And you know, at least been an open relationships for 13 years or, you know,

[00:41:58] Tonya : [00:41:58] like pretty much always. [00:42:00] Yeah.

[00:42:00] Briana cavanaugh: [00:42:00] So all this time, and even still after all of this time, there’s new things to explore, not just new people, but like your body is working in a whole different way of a sudden.

[00:42:09] Tonya : [00:42:09] Yeah. Well, I had a hysterectomy. I evicted my uterus in December of 2017 that’s exactly how I feel about a get the **** out you janky piece of flesh. And prior to that, part of the reason why the uterus got the boot was I had gotten to, I had a condition called Edina meiosis, where it’s like endometriosis or an endometriosis.

[00:42:35] The endometrium, which is the lining of your uterus and endometriosis. It grows outside the uterus on other organs with aDino meiosis, it grows into the uterine walls. So. You’re several years back. In 2008 I had an ablation, which essentially, you know, burns out the endometrium. Well, I don’t know if I had the condition then, if [00:43:00] this caused it, but because it was in my uterine walls.

[00:43:04] When I had orgasms, it got to the point that it was like a Charlie horse and my uterus. That was so painful. It felt like I had been donkey kicked in my uterus. And when I have orgasms are very big and very powerful as you witnessed. And um, and I have aftershocks. So when I have the aftershocks, I would get secondary cramps still.

[00:43:30] So after, after orgasming I’d be in so much pain and I’m, I’m a kinky motherfucker. I like pain. I like pain in my *****. When I have sex, but this was, no, this was terrible.

[00:43:43] Briana cavanaugh: [00:43:43] There’s pain and then there’s pain, consensual pain, and then there’s **** my uterus pain.

[00:43:49] Tonya : [00:43:49] Exactly. Yeah. So I lost a sex drive for a long time because it just ****ing hurt.

[00:43:54] My husband could **** me and. Well, he could make love to me [00:44:00] and be tender and sweet and gentle, and that’s fine every once in a while. But I like it rough. I want to be rammed and ****ed, you know, very aggressively, and he couldn’t do that anymore, so just wasn’t satisfying for me anymore. It was still important.

[00:44:17] Yeah. Yeah. So utero, the uterus finally got the eviction and. It took me a while to, I’m still easing back into my body. It’s been almost two years, because even though it’s not like that anymore, when I have those big orgasms, I’m still waiting for the pain to come.

[00:44:37] Briana cavanaugh: [00:44:37] So sort of. Post uterus PTSD. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:41] Tonya : [00:44:41] Like, especially when I, when I’ve had the really bad orgasms the last couple of days, or, well, I haven’t had sex since that one day, but anyways, those were really big orgasm. Wow. I guess you had sex yesterday morning with . Which Tristan’s  fist, and then with her [00:45:00] foot and the dungeon. But we’re going back to that.

[00:45:02] Um, these scenes are great stories. Everybody should hear these stories. Excellent sex, bedtime story, very rambly. I apologize for the lack of linear, you know, whatever. I mean, your narrative,

[00:45:18] Briana cavanaugh: [00:45:18] how often can we get a really linear narrative when people are just talking? It’s not a real,

[00:45:24] Tonya : [00:45:24] that’s true. That’s fair.

[00:45:25] So during the story’s great right Jacques.

[00:45:31] So yes, this G-spot orgasm is a new thing for me. I have never been a woman at any point in my life who has been able to have an orgasm from. Penetration alone. I’ve always had to have clitoral stimulation.

[00:45:49] Most women

[00:45:49] Briana cavanaugh: [00:45:49] need that. Exactly. Exactly. Well over 80% which is a lot more than most people. It’s more, it’s much more than half.

[00:45:57] Yeah, and so if you’re, you’re a person who is having sex [00:46:00] with vagina Havers, you should really consider. Whether you’re getting your colorations clitoral stimulation mashed together. Are you getting your clear, your stipulation game on you need to up that game.

[00:46:14] Tonya : [00:46:14] Yeah. Or, you know, find out what needs to happen, you know, talk to your partner and also over the last, I don’t know, I don’t, I can’t remember how long ago it started.

[00:46:27] It’s been more difficult. Because it’s like, it became more complicated. I had to have this kind of pressure for this amount of time and this spot, and then this and this. And you really couldn’t vary from it, you know? But the thing is, I, it’s not like I knew exactly what the pattern was. Exactly. You gotta do this for this long and this, it’s fluid.

[00:46:48] So it just became very difficult. So. Orgasm hasn’t been a focus for me for a really long time. I don’t really masturbate because I have carpal tunnel and my wrist and vibrators just weren’t doing [00:47:00] it for me until I got, this is not a paid endorsement. I have this, okay. A Lilo, Sona Cruz and those alone.

[00:47:08] Yes. It’s so pretty. And Lilo is a problematic company for reasons that I’m not going to get into, cause quite honestly, I don’t remember. You can do some research on your own, but it is amazing. It’s my. Five second orgasm, vibrate her squirt gush, and I can just keep coming and coming and coming. It’s the one that has like the sort of sucky womanizer.

[00:47:29] Yeah, it’s going in there. The womanizer had the, was the first one in the market and now there, there are lots of others now besides the womanizer, but it’s the most well known. So it’s very Sosa, the one I have. So yeah. So at the womanizer, it’s my friend. Oh my God. Also, not a paid endorsement, but Oh my God, they should have a tread.

[00:47:50] Briana cavanaugh: [00:47:50] Like if you like toys and you’ve tried vibrating toys and they’re like, you know, you like them or you don’t, but you’re interested in trying toys. I definitely recommend one of that.

[00:47:58] Tonya : [00:47:58] This is not, it’s not [00:48:00] buzzy. It’s not rumbly. It’s just, it’s not. It’s sucky, but not, it’s just different. It’s. Amazing.

[00:48:10] Briana cavanaugh: [00:48:10] So her seal of endorsement  just do it.

[00:48:15] Tonya : [00:48:15] Um, so I was not, and the thing is, uh, G-spot orgasm. Feels different than a clitoral orgasm. I know the precursors for my orgasms. I know what it feels like. I’m like, yes, yes. Just “right, right, right, right, right, right, right, stop. Whatever you do!” It’s almost it. You know? I know what that feels like so. Um, she, you know, had her fingers inside me stimulating my G spot and I can squirt without having an orgasm.

[00:48:49] You know, it’s completely independent. I mean, if I’m squirting, I kinda like to have an orgasm cause it feels, it’s almost like what I imagine blue balls, if that’s a real thing, feels [00:49:00] like, you know, um, but just don’t feel complete so I can do it before I orgasm. But generally if I’m squirting and orgasms pointing to happen.

[00:49:11] So I started squirting and then next thing I knew I was coming and it just, it just happened. I didn’t, I didn’t know it was going to happen. I wasn’t prepared. I wasn’t trying. It just happened. And so then I was in trouble cause I came to that.

[00:49:30] So then fast forward to a few hours later. And dungeon nights. She told me to be there at eight I was there at seven 30 because you know,

[00:49:40] Briana cavanaugh: [00:49:40] being on time is very good idea if you’re being in service. Absolutely.

[00:49:44] Tonya : [00:49:44] And really the trick is you just have to be there before they get there. And. She said she probably wasn’t going to be there until after eight actually, but I didn’t care and I want to take the chance.

[00:49:57] So I was there ready and waiting. I had already prepped the [00:50:00] dungeon staff. I told them I am in service to Tristan tonight, so you know, I have access to this area because you know, they rope off the dungeon.

[00:50:08] Briana cavanaugh: [00:50:08] Yep.

[00:50:09] Tonya : [00:50:09] And not just anybody is allowed in there, you know? So every morning everyone asked me, well, what exactly does that mean?

[00:50:17] And I said, I don’t know. I do whatever she tells me to. Well, like what? I’m like, I literally, I don’t know. She asked me to be in service to her. I said that I would be said

[00:50:27] Briana cavanaugh: [00:50:27] I said

[00:50:28] yes.

[00:50:28] Tonya : [00:50:28] I said, that’s it. That’s all I know now. And then I said, I’m going to be doing a scene with her. I will be her first scene and then she will be seeing others.

[00:50:37] Well, what kind of scene are you going to do? I don’t know. I have told you all of the information that I have. I said yes, and really that’s all she wrote. So when she arrived. We went to our area and got set up and she said, you’re going to sit here, and we discussed my body and what it can and can’t do, which you [00:51:00] know, I have arthritis in my lower back, at least my right hip, my right knee, probably my left knee also, and probably my left hip, but.

[00:51:10] The right side has been scanned. The left side has not, cause I have more problems with my right side than not. So, you know, we talked about that and we talked about what her expectations were and that, you know, I was going to serve her and I call her ma’am and she was going to put me in a collar and was I okay with that?

[00:51:31] And of course I was okay with that.

[00:51:32] Briana cavanaugh: [00:51:32] Hello

[00:51:33] Welcome to Tonya’s wet

[00:51:34] dreams!

[00:51:34] Um,

[00:51:36] Tonya : [00:51:36] hello? Um, so. She seated me and she put the collar on and she said, you know, it’s not like no eye contact face down. You know, I want you to stay connected with me. So then, you know, we did some spanking and she got me some really good spankings. I thought I had a bruise.

[00:51:59] But [00:52:00] I don’t, I had been sitting on my butts. I’m not real certain if I do or not. I don’t see, no, I didn’t see it earlier. I don’t want to hold bruises on my butt for very long anymore. I mean, unless you really like really. Give me like serious spankings.

[00:52:20] Briana cavanaugh: [00:52:20] I mean, try to, do you need to ask for some marks?

[00:52:25] Tonya : [00:52:25] Well, it’s, the marks are on my heart, and that’s the important ones. Um, so, so we did some spankings, and then I was in a. I started off in a position that was comfortable for a short time and then we changed her different position and then a different position. And then I was at a point I couldn’t stand anymore.

[00:52:43] So she told me to sit and got me some water and made sure I was comfortable and she went and got her first person. And the instruction was that when she told me to, I was going to play with [00:53:00] myself. During her scene with this other person. And so the other person came in and you know, she asked them, you know, this, this, this is Tanya, and she’s in service and each night, and this is her directive, are you okay with that?

[00:53:12] So she got consent from her person as well,

[00:53:15] Briana cavanaugh: [00:53:15] and she’s getting consent from you. All along. Oh, absolutely. I want to notice that like everybody is getting consent in this scenario. Tristin a consent from Tanya, Tanya prep the dungeon folks and , which is a form of getting their consent to be in that space.

[00:53:30] Uh, and then Tristan got Tanya’s consent again with the name and the ceremony and the putting the collar on. And then Tristin that the consent of the next person that she played with, like there is so much consent happening in this all the time, and it’s important, especially if you’re going to play with multiple people and you’re sort of stacking things and interacting with multiple people.

[00:53:51] Tonya : [00:53:51] It’s a never assume. Yeah.

[00:53:53] Briana cavanaugh: [00:53:53] You never see him. You don’t assume if the person who’s coming after you has been paying any attention at all. You don’t assume that the dungeon staff has their pre-prepped [00:54:00] what’s going to happen? Like there’s a lot, there’s a lot of nobody. Nobody has any idea what it took.

[00:54:05] Tonya : [00:54:05] Except, of course she knew she had, she had a grand plan, you know, all along. But we did not know that it was on a need to know basis

[00:54:16] Briana cavanaugh: [00:54:16] and no one else needed to know exactly.

[00:54:18] Tonya : [00:54:18] So she had her first scene, which involved. Some foot worship and she had told me to touch myself, and then her scene involved taking the person outside of the scene area and before she left, I asked, may I rest my wrist?

[00:54:35] I didn’t ask, can I stop touching myself? I asked, may I rest my wrist? Because when she and I were first setting up and negotiating, because that’s essentially what we were doing. It was just a conversation, but we were negotiating. She’s like, this is what I expect from you. Are you okay with this? Are you okay with this?

[00:54:54] And she was adamant, absolutely adamant that at any [00:55:00] point, if I became physically uncomfortable or had any pain or any issues with anything. I was to let her know immediately and she said, because if you can’t serve me in the way that I need to be served, then that displeases me.

[00:55:18] Briana cavanaugh: [00:55:18] So, and that’s, that is a hallmark of a really good top, good Dom.

[00:55:23] Tonya : [00:55:23] Absolute. They don’t break their toys. Exactly. Exactly. I asked her, I didn’t ask her if I could stop touching myself. I asked her if I could rest my wrist because I have carpal tunnel. And you know, as a fat girl, it’s not easy to access parts. There’s a reach situation and then you got to move stuff out of the way and

[00:55:43] Briana cavanaugh: [00:55:43] We need better toys for fat pussies.

[00:55:45] Tonya : [00:55:45] Yeah. You know, and this was just my finger. She had asked if I had a vibrator with me because her intention was for me to use that. And I said, well. I have my five second orgasm, vibrant. And she said, Oh no, that won’t do. Because she wanted [00:56:00] me to be warmed up for what she was going to do to me later.

[00:56:04] And you know, she had other things to do in between that time. She could not focus on warming me up because she had other priorities. So I was to take that job and that’s how I was serving her, was warming my self phone. So I, I stopped her.

[00:56:22] Briana cavanaugh: [00:56:22] Excellent story.

[00:56:23] Tonya : [00:56:23] So I stopped touching myself and you know, they finished their scene and then the next person was someone who was a newbie Dom, who really didn’t want a scene, just wanted to talk to Tristan and me and pick our brains and ask us questions as seasoned kinksters, you know? So she was giving her experiences at the top, and I was giving mine as a bottom and submissive and also as a switch, you know, there was a lot of question and answer back and forth.

[00:57:00] [00:56:59] So after he was done. There wasn’t anybody else on her list, so she decided, yeah, I’ll let you people, because people are scared of her and intimidated by her.

[00:57:14] Briana cavanaugh: [00:57:14] I shouldn’t put my name on the list.

[00:57:15] Tonya : [00:57:15] You should have put your name on the list. Her list is going to get really full up, and so I think that’s why I was going to, you know, bow out, give other people a chance, but weren’t afraid of her.

[00:57:28] Briana cavanaugh: [00:57:28] They were like, Oh yeah, man, I’m going to. Whenever I’m going

[00:57:31] Tonya : [00:57:31] to be on Tristin’s list,

[00:57:32] Briana cavanaugh: [00:57:32] I’m not seeing what, just an, yeah.

[00:57:34] Tonya : [00:57:34] So, um, so there wasn’t anybody on the list yet. So she took that opportunity to saran wrap me to a bowl

[00:57:43] Briana cavanaugh: [00:57:43] like you do. Yeah.

[00:57:44] Tonya : [00:57:44] Yeah. You know, I get here, um, with my arms to my side, I was sitting on like a cube with my back to a pillar and. Layers and layers of saran wrap around, around, around, around, around. I couldn’t move.

[00:57:58] Briana cavanaugh: [00:57:58] That’s brilliant.

[00:57:59] Tonya : [00:57:59] And she [00:58:00] wanted me to touch myself, but I’m like, eh. So she had given me a dildoe. She’s like, try to possess, she’s like, can you, can you touch yourself with your foot? And I’m like, my body doesn’t know. So she had stuck a dildo. Down between my legs pointed at my ***** and she’s like, well, here, rub yourself on that as as best you can.

[00:58:21] And when she, and so she had to go off to check the list and do some other things. And when she came back, she’s like, were you able? And I’m like, I got it a little bit close, but she’s like, okay, we’ll have to think of something else. And during the little interview process with the guy we talked about ears and I had mentioned that I’m afraid of knives, but I really, really like it.

[00:58:44] And I think I, I think I expressed

[00:58:47] Briana cavanaugh: [00:58:47] it to the similar to a thing that you said to Tristin last time last year,

[00:58:51] Tonya : [00:58:51] that piercings were off limits and yeah, it appears this was different though. I just explained myself [00:59:00] poorly. One of my favorite things about knife playing is when the blade is right up against your skin, and there’s the fear that you can cut, you know?

[00:59:10] And I’m not into cutting specifically if it happens incidentally, and if there’s a little bit of blood, that’s okay, but that’s not my goal. But I like that danger feeling. So she went backstage and found a knife or borrowed a pocket knife from someone with a, probably like a. I dunno, I it’s that two in three inches.

[00:59:31] Maybe like a three inch blade pocket knife blade. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not real good with measurement, you know, I mean, men, my whole life had been telling me this is eight inches,

[00:59:44] so I don’t really know how far that cause this. Yeah. Is that a foot and a half? I don’t know.

[00:59:52] So it was probably a three or four inch blade. And so she, you know, she dragged it all over my skin talking about, you know, if she [01:00:00] just said, Oh, it’s too dark to see which side of the blade is dull or sharp and you know, I could accidentally slip and cut you. And you know, and I’m totally into it. Cause I love, love, love, love knives and I just love knives themselves.

[01:00:17] Like looking at them and checking out the blades and, and feeling them and holding them. I have friends who make blades. And I used to hang out with them at the forge and I called myself like a a knife, groupie or forge groupie because I, whenever they were making blades, Oh, I’ll be right there. You know, I got to test the blades and give input on design and stuff.

[01:00:38] It was just super fun.

[01:00:39] Briana cavanaugh: [01:00:39] THe Sounds it’s cool.

[01:00:40] Tonya : [01:00:40] So. I’m totally been into it for a long, long time, and I know something that makes it can make some killer blades worry if you want, if you’re interested. Um, I don’t know as a website or anything like that. Right. But so, you know, she’s doing all of that. And then she like got down between my legs and spread my legs.

[01:00:59] And [01:01:00] was dragging the blade along my ***** lips on my inner thighs and kept going lower and lower and lower. She and was too dark, she went and got her phone, the flashlight. So she had, see, so she’s like, this is what she say, really professional or something, I don’t know. And so I’m sitting down and she had the blade all the way under my ***** where all you could see was the hillt.

[01:01:27] And I mean, I can feel it wasn’t cutting me, but I could feel the blade like on my cheeks. And then she’s like, Oh, well, I guess we’re going to have to sanitize this. That’s fine. You’ll clean it up later. And then, uh. What’s the next thing? So then she still nobody on the list. Cause you know people are dumb and they don’t know this is Tristan ****ing Taormmino.

[01:01:49] And

[01:01:49] Briana cavanaugh: [01:01:49] she’s like, don’t they know who I am? And I’m like, I know, right. Whatever. I think people get scared and, Oh yeah, absolutely don’t understand that. That. Experienced [01:02:00] players can play at any level. Absolutely. Just because you’re experienced doesn’t mean that you always need to play at the very edge of everything in the most intense, the idea of, you know, once you have experience, like with anything like.

[01:02:14] At least in my opinion, experienced players know how to play it all these different levels, right? Because you know, sometimes you have a partner who likes to play super rough and super hard, and this is a, you know, piggy slut bottom. And then sometimes like, you know, if you want to play with anyone other than that, you have to figure out how to moderate, you know, moderate and modulate your, your speed, your tempo, your warm up, your, you know, your impact, your, you know, the breadth of the toys that you play with.

[01:02:39] You know, absolutely be able to connect with other humans as humans are. Varied and diverse and like that.

[01:02:45] Tonya : [01:02:45] So then she, uh, she cut open the, um, saran wrap from around me, but she taught she recently, or she did it with [01:03:00] safety paramedics shoes, not with the knife because the knife was really dull. She, she wanted to, she’s like, this knife’s not doing them.

[01:03:06] So then. Um, she used the safety shears to cut it off of me, but then that was to get me off the pole. But then she wrapped it around me still, and she’d asked me which hand do I masturbate with? And I don’t remember exactly what happened, but she said, uh, she, we decided against that course of action and she wanted me to go find some lube.

[01:03:31] So she’s like, I have, I have a toy for you. And she had asked me to unpack the toy bag and there was a harness. Some I can tell it was some sort of harness because it had a hole for dildo, but I couldn’t quite make heads or tails of it. Um, so then she had it, and then as she was lying, I guess maybe because I was seeing it from a different perspective, I’m like, Oh, I saw that earlier and wasn’t sure what it was.

[01:03:58] I said, but I see now it’s a thigh [01:04:00] harness. And she said, it’s not for my thought. And she said, it goes on my foot. So she put this lovely uncircumcised cock dildo, or she had me put this lovely uncircumcised cock dildo on this strap on, on her foot, and then we spent, actually, maybe we were discussing positions.

[01:04:32] There was a lot of laughter because she is

[01:04:35] Tristanustin’s funny

[01:04:35] Briana cavanaugh: [01:04:35] and you guys have a good time together.

[01:04:37] Tonya : [01:04:37] Yes, but also because she wants to respect my physical limitations, of course. And she has some physical limitations of her own. Right.

[01:04:46] Briana cavanaugh: [01:04:46] We live in, we live in these meets acts. Right?

[01:04:49] Tonya : [01:04:49] So trying to figure out what position would be best, the result that what she wanted.

[01:04:56] The goal was for me to ride her foot. [01:05:00] With this dldoe, I’m shot. And trying to figure out what position was best for that. Because the thing is, I can’t really be on top because my, my hips and my knees, you know, it, I can do it for a minute, but not for long. So we discussed all these various iterations of positions and then we asked the, uh, service top next to us who had four cubes ratchet latched together to form a bed with a thin mattress on top of it. If we could borrow his station for a few moments.

[01:05:38] He was, that’s where he was doing wax play and a violet wand. So people could lie down. She asked if we could use his place space for a few minutes. While, we did this thing and she had sent me on a mission to find lube because we didn’t have any.

[01:05:55] And because sex doesn’t usually happen in the [01:06:00] dungeon. There wasn’t really lube around to be found. But finally I remember that I had some in my bag. It’ll look, cause even though I’m incredibly turned on, I mean I am so ****ing turned on, my ***** doesn’t get wet. I mean, it’s just, you know, a fact of life.

[01:06:16] It happens. You know, some. Yeah.

[01:06:18] Briana cavanaugh: [01:06:18] Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn’t.

[01:06:20] Tonya : [01:06:20] Yeah. Lubrication. Actually lubrication is welcome. And I shouldn’t say it like,

[01:06:27] Briana cavanaugh: [01:06:27] just like, you know, uh, penises get hard or they don’t get hard. And sometimes it’s like, I feel like in the whim, at the whim of the gods, right? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

[01:06:38] And so, you know, if you really want to have sex, you gotta have all the all the suppliers and lupus.

[01:06:44] Tonya : [01:06:44] It’s no indication of desire. Right. You know, and it’s, no, it’s, there’s no fault. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just bodies are weird. And dumb and

[01:06:55] Briana cavanaugh: [01:06:55] Meat sacks man meets facts.

[01:06:56] Exactly. So found some [01:07:00] lube.

[01:07:00] Tonya : [01:07:00] Figured out the position and

[01:07:03] Briana cavanaugh: [01:07:03] finally, after much to do now,

[01:07:07]Tonya : [01:07:07] there was still, there was so much do to come

[01:07:10] Briana cavanaugh: [01:07:10] and eventually very late in the game. So she was somewhere around midnight.

[01:07:18] Tonya : [01:07:18] She was lying on her back with one leg, kind of bent leg with the foot, with the dildo, and I was trying to

[01:07:25] Briana cavanaugh: [01:07:25] eventually

[01:07:26] Tonya : [01:07:26] insert it, but.

[01:07:28] It wasn’t a very so much like a real cock that sometimes doesn’t get fully erect. You know, I

[01:07:39] Briana cavanaugh: [01:07:39] or gets her act and then is not erect. And then, I mean, it just, you know, it meets sex man.

[01:07:43] Tonya : [01:07:43] Exactly. It was a little bit difficult. It was so much like real sex. It was a little difficult.

[01:07:48] Briana cavanaugh: [01:07:48] It was so much like real sex ladies and germs, you know?

[01:07:53] Tonya : [01:07:53] You know how everybody has a **** on their foot and ****, you know, so much like real sex. I mean, it was [01:08:00] uncircumcised.

[01:08:01] Briana cavanaugh: [01:08:01] Well, if you’re going to have one on your foot, you know, why would you circumcise? Exactly. So

[01:08:12] So finally and try to trick Jacques into to say something, but he’s not falling. Um,

[01:08:18] Tonya : [01:08:18] so finally there was insertion

[01:08:21] Briana cavanaugh: [01:08:21] and yay.

[01:08:25] Tonya : [01:08:25] And I was laughing, laughing, laughing, so much laughing. But lots of eye contact and the hotness. So, so, so much hotness. And you know that actually the **** actually felt really good. It didn’t matter if it was on her foot or whatever.

[01:08:44] She and I have lots of eye contact. So, you know, we did that for some amount of time and then we decided that we should give him his station back. And then she and I went to the aftercare room and just kind of cuddled [01:09:00] and snuggled and talked for a long time and had very special quality time together and very sweet, cemented the bond that I, I thought I had felt.

[01:09:13] But you know, you never, you never know for certain how another person is feeling. Right. You know, until they tell you. I mean, actions do speak louder than words. But words can confirm in ways that actions may not always.

[01:09:29] Briana cavanaugh: [01:09:29] And, and so I think we should wrap up,

[01:09:31] Tonya : [01:09:31] cause we’re like five hours, five hours later, Tanya stops talking because she’s lost her voice and can’t talk.

[01:09:40] Briana cavanaugh: [01:09:40] I mean it’s, it’s a good story. And I think that like there’s a sub, cause I found you guys a couple of hours later. Yeah. A little bit later. And you were hanging out at the, there’s a, like a. A lobby bar and having some refreshments. And there is a, there is a palpable bond. And I just like when we started, we were talking about all these [01:10:00] different kinds of relationships and I just got to want to go back and be like, you know, this relationship is with someone who you knew, like who didn’t know you cause they’re, you know, kind of a sex, sex celebrity.

[01:10:10] And. And over a period of a year. Right? So seeing them last year at Desire once in the middle of the year, keeping in touch, and there’s a, there’s a sweet, deep connection, and it’s not, it’s not a husband, right? It’s not one of those idealized connections. It’s one of the things when you, when you step outside of having proscribed or prescribed or, you know.

[01:10:37] Tonya : [01:10:37] Define

[01:10:38] Briana cavanaugh: [01:10:38] defined, pre-ordered relationships that you can find these really amazing Swedes, unexpected places that are just very… I mean heart connecting, loving, satisfying, like absolutely. Yeah. And, and I, for me, that’s, that’s part and parcel of all this. That you [01:11:00] can have all these connections and all these different ways and they, they don’t look like, you know, what, what mainstream people, you know, connections are kind of quote unquote supposed to look like.

[01:11:10] But like, if you’ve been listening to this story, like Tanya is really happy. I saw Tristan, she was really happy to, I can vouch for her. And, um. And, yeah, and it’s not always about knowing what will happen and living together and raising children and doing all these things. And I just wanted to kind of bring it back around to this idea of making extraordinary choices.

[01:11:30] Like it’s, you know, might not be what every other relationship looks like, but if you’re listening, you can, you can really hear the joy and the satisfaction in all of this. Is there any, do you want to say anything else to wrap it up?

[01:11:47] Tonya : [01:11:47] I’m so happy to be here. It it, it was, it’s never easy for me to get here because I am financially challenged and I talk about, you know, how many [01:12:00] ****s do I have to suck to get here? There were literally some ****s sucked to get me here. There, there was legit sex work. Well, legit quotation mark sex work involved to get here because I think it’s worth it.

[01:12:13] And the struggle,

[01:12:15] the financial hardships that I’ve undertaken to get here are absolutely worth being here with my people and my community and making those connections, you know?

[01:12:30] Briana cavanaugh: [01:12:30] And we support sex workers. Like it’s, it’s legitimate.

[01:12:33] Tonya : [01:12:33] Yeah. AB sex work is work. That’s right. We’re all selling our bodies in one way or another.

[01:12:39] Briana cavanaugh: [01:12:39] You know? Thanks for being willing to talk about it and share all the, you see details and the giggles and fun and smiles and all of that.

[01:12:48] Tonya : [01:12:48] Thank you so much for be here having me. It’s been my pleasure.

[01:12:52] Briana cavanaugh: [01:12:52] Thanks for being had. That’s right. More on that later. [01:13:00] Bye. Bye everyone. This has been extraordinary podcast.

[01:13:05] Remember that you have the ability to make extraordinary choices and meet extraordinary people. Thank you so much for listening. Please make sure to like review and subscribe to my podcast, especially hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to podcasts. If extraordinary has contributed to your life in any way, please pop over to our Patrion at patrion.com/extraordinary with four X’s patrion.com/extraordinary with four exes and contribute to making the podcast go.

[01:13:33] You can sign up for more information as well and get cool stuff and ask me all your questions. That’s patriotic.com/extraordinary thank you so much. [01:14:00]


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EP 03 – Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline

EP 03 – Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline

Body Liberation with Lindley Ashline!

 Body Liberation!

We’ve been doing the LIVE interviews and i love them.

I’ve been following Lindley for years! She’s really dedicated to body liberation and I really appreciate her continued commitment to showing up in fat community. 


This was the perfect time to talk to her about what she’s up to. Body Liberation photos, the Body Love box, amazing fat stock photos. And of course the critical importance of telling our stories! Links and more below!


Detailed show notes below!

Show notes: Body Liberation with Lindly Ashline!


Lindley Ashline (pronounced LIN-lee, she/her) creates artwork that celebrates the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional “beauty” standards. Lindley is also the creator of Body Liberation Stock and the Body Love Box, a monthly body-acceptance subscription box. She lives outside Seattle with her husband and two feline overlords.

Find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly Body Liberation Guide at http://bit.ly/bodyliberationguide.

Social links:
FB: https://www.facebook.com/bodyliberationphotos
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bodyliberationwithlindley


Today we talked about:

  • Live Journal and Fatshionista
  • Coming up in Fat Fashion
  • “The higher up including size as you go, the harder it’s going to be to access the same level of style.”
  • The magic of fashion
  • People not understanding sizes and not being able to think above a size XL.
  • There are lots of sizes of people. Many more than on tv or in the media. Representation matters!
  • The importance of being in diet talk free spaces.
  • The importance of telling our stories and being seen.
  • Lots of deeply personal stories about being photographed and being seen.

Body Liberation with  Lindley Ashline

Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:00] Welcome

[00:00:04] to fat girl finds love a podcast about that. Love that sex and that relationship. I am your fat host, Brianna Kavanaugh. Hi everybody. This is Briana Cavanaugh, and we’re doing a guest interview today on guest interview days, we learned from Anne about folks doing fat positive or fat positive adjacent work.

[00:00:23] As a reminder, we don’t bleep out cuss words or swear words and we don’t edit for explicit material. So this is your warning that this interview may contain adult material in the Cerner discretion. Is. Advise this episode, we’re going to be hanging out with Linley Ashline. She, um, her pronouns are, she in her creates artwork that celebrates the unique beauty of bodies that fall outside conventional quote unquote beauty standards.

[00:00:52] Lindley is also the creator of body liberation stock. And the body love box, a monthly body acceptance, a subscription box. She lives outside Seattle with her husband and her two feline overlords, and you can find Lindley’s work and get her free weekly body liberation guide at Bitly. Slash body liberation guide, and we’ll put these links and then social media links for Lindley in the show notes.

[00:01:19] So you can just scroll down and click on the

[00:01:22] link. Okay. Welcome. And Lee.

[00:01:24] Lindley Ashline: [00:01:24] Hi. Glad to be here. Yay.

[00:01:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:26] So I know you because we are in fact communities together and somebody somewhere was like, Oh, you should know her. And so we became friends on Facebook and. Um, you have a, uh, like a Facebook community where you post all kinds of cool links and ideas and conversations.

[00:01:47] And then also I just really enjoyed, uh, I gave love your stock photos. I was one of the things, I was like, Oh my gosh. And I’ve scrolled through very many times and I’m like, especially when I’m feeling a little low about my body, I’m like, Oh, I know where I need to look. And I just like go look through all the things.

[00:02:02] And then also, as I’ve been looking at decorating my new home. I keeping like, Oh wait, maybe I need that one. Why that one? Maybe I need to get these things. And sort of in the process of talking to my sweetheart about being like, yeah, we need some of these for our walls. We need more fat

[00:02:16] arts.

[00:02:18] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:18] So that’s my experience.

[00:02:20] I’ve been very enjoying connecting with you on Facebook for it

[00:02:23] for quite awhile. And

[00:02:24] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:24] so I’m pleased that you’re coming to play with us today.

[00:02:28] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:28] Yeah. It’s really exciting to be here. Yay.

[00:02:32] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:32] So with everyone, we start with what I call vital sets. So you could say, why don’t you say your own name? Because sometimes that’s helpful for pronunciation.

[00:02:42] Lindley Ashline: [00:02:42] Sure. My name is Lindley Ashline. It is a, it is more or less like it looks, except I leave out the D in Lindley because I’m setting and although I live out outside Seattle now, I was born and raised in North Carolina. So the two things that I can cook are sweet potato casserole and sweetie, and I’m terrible at everything else.

[00:03:03] But I can cook, I can cook.

[00:03:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:10] So what race

[00:03:11] are you?

[00:03:11] Lindley Ashline: [00:03:11] See, I am a white street ish, cisgender woman. I’m 39 years old and I where I identify as a large fat in. There’s sort of an, a very informal system of body size. And, and I’m not sure if it’s been talked about here on this podcast before, but in fact, community, we occasionally talk about fat sizing being, uh, maybe at the very smallest end, maybe, maybe size 10, 12, 14 in United States clothing sizes that might be a small fast.

[00:03:41] And then you would have a medium fat and a large fat. And as some people will call. People at the very largest end of the body size spectrum, a super fat or incentive fat. And so I’m, I wear about a size 26 28 and maybe lane Bryant style size him. And so identify as a large fat. I live with a couple of invisible chronic illnesses.

[00:04:01] I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder and I also live with some muscle issues in my arms that occasionally, okay. All the time. Give me some, give me some mobility challenges. So, uh, so when I speak and write, I’m usually doing so from. The, the lens of these vital stats that I’ve just given.

[00:04:22] Nice. Thank you.

[00:04:24] And then do you, you also tell us your relationship status and kind of your, your relationship style.

[00:04:31] Yeah, I am, uh, I’m married in a hetero relationship to the street man, and I actually married my high school sweetheart. So were the, were those were those people who got super lucky, super young. Uh, we started dating when I was.

[00:04:49] 16 and he was 17 I think it’s been a long time ago, and we went to neighboring high school. Then having mutual friend who introduced us, we were together through college. We went to separate colleges, but we maintained a semi long distance relationship for a number of years that way. And, and got married when I was a junior in college and he was a senior.

[00:05:06] And so we have pretty much been. Um, I mean, like I said, I’m very lucky. He got very lucky, very young. We’d been there. I believed this really great, stable relationship, um, monogamous relationship at least so far. And so it’s both fascinating and kind of boring at the same time. Um, and then I don’t have a lot of like different relationship stories to tell, but be in, in a very longterm, stable relationship.

[00:05:31] But like I said, it’s a, it’s a privilege and, you know, luck and privilege and also some work to maintain that.

[00:05:37] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. And then is there anything else, any other marginalized identities or disabilities that you haven’t named?

[00:05:47] Lindley Ashline: [00:05:47] Not that I can think of.

[00:05:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:48] Okay. So how did you come in to find your fat identity or your fat positive identity?

[00:05:56] Lindley Ashline: [00:05:56] livejournal.com. Basically, in a nutshell. Uh, so, so back when livejournal.com was a big deal back in the late nineties and early two thousands, the site still exists, but I don’t, I don’t know how all. Uh, how popular it is these days, but, uh, it

[00:06:15] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:06:15] was, you know, it’s owned by Russians and that, like, it’s really, yeah.

[00:06:19] It’s really weird. Yeah,

[00:06:22] Lindley Ashline: [00:06:22] yeah, yeah. And, uh, and yeah, when Facebook became a big thing was not too long after a Russian company with potential ties to. Russian government bought LiveJournal and it was a, it’s a big mess at the time when Facebook was getting popular, so many of us just migrated over to Facebook.

[00:06:42] But before that, in about 2006, 2007, uh, I happened to run across I LiveJournal community, which is kind of like a Facebook group called Fatshionista. It’s like fashionista, but with, yeah. And, and it blew my mind, blew my mind because there were hundreds of mostly fat white women, um, and a few women of color who people were just.

[00:07:08] Rocking it like just being fashionable and, and sexy or trendy or classy or whatever, you know, just living their big, bold lives in big, bold clothing and wearing horizontal stripes and wearing miniskirts and wearing. Um, before, like bra labs were a thing, but like if rods had been a thing, they would have been out there wearing bralette outerwear and like wearing, wearing anything they wanted and being fashionable and stylish and totally blew my mind because like many, many other people, I grew up in a world of, you know, fat girls don’t wear horizontal stripes and fat girls don’t show their belly outline and fat girls only get, some fat girls won’t do that.

[00:07:48] And these people were just. Cheerfully ignoring all that. And I basically sat there for a year or two and just lurked was like, what is this magic? But you know, surely that like, okay, but fine. Maybe they’re, you know, well, maybe she’s an hourglass. I mean, like, I can’t access that. I’m a pair, or, or maybe, Oh, well, she can, she can pull that off.

[00:08:08] But I couldn’t pull that off. And eventually, with, with exposure, I realize that I can pull off anything I want to, to, I can do that too. And I mean, and that said, Mmm. Is the higher up including size as you go, the harder it’s going to be to access the same level of style. There’s someone who is in a smaller clothing size category is able to, but within those constraints I may have to work a lot harder to do it, but I can wear that stuff too.

[00:08:33] And that. Having access to both resource wise cause a lot of what people were doing was researching. This is before a little bit before the explosion of plus size clothing on the internet. And so you might have to work really, really, really hard to find a neon yellow miniskirt if that was what you wanted, uh, to, to complete that outfit.

[00:08:53] And so a lot of it was training and resources. Oh, I heard about this in the company. That makes so and so, so. Yeah. And so just that was kind of my entree. And the thing is that I’m not, by nature, I’m not a particularly stylish or fashionable person. And now that I work for myself, at the time I was working in an office every day.

[00:09:12] Now that I work for myself and have my own business, I pretty much live in. Towards super soft t-shirts, which is what I’m wearing right now. And, and like yoga pants. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure half the people, half the people who hear that towards deeper, softer, like, yes, yes,

[00:09:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:09:28] yes, yes.

[00:09:30] Lindley Ashline: [00:09:30] But, but you know, as I pretty much live in whatever’s comfortable and clean these days, emphasis on the comfortable.

[00:09:35] So as I matured in my sense of self and in my sense of what do I actually want to live in. And again, also as I moved from having to appear in an office every day to, you know, be being in my home office. Most of the time my sense has changed waiver towards just whatever’s comfortable, but just having access to fashion, having access to what everybody else was able to.

[00:09:59] Yeah. And you know, by everybody else, I mean people in smaller bodies. Then the my specific body, like what? It just seems like it was just magic that I would never be able to access. And then when I was able to, to to mentally access it, suddenly it was like, Oh my God, I could wear a highlighter, yellow pencil skirt if I want.

[00:10:16] And then I would go by that. And so I moved from just lurking. To actually do an outfit of the day, post myself and do, wait, I didn’t even realize it at the time, but I was starting this process of learning to see myself to see what, yeah, I actually looked like,

[00:10:34] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:34] let’s talk. Can talk about that for a minute.

[00:10:37] How often, first of all, how often do you get to see ourselves and how often do other people see us accurately? Right? I can’t tell you how often somebody was like, Oh yeah, well, we just have a, we have an extra large t-shirt that

[00:10:52] Lindley Ashline: [00:10:52] it’s gonna fit you fine. I’m like, have you seen,

[00:10:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:56] what is it that you see? Like what are you

[00:10:58] Lindley Ashline: [00:10:58] looking at?

[00:10:59] How do you know?

[00:11:02] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:02] Or they’ll say things like, yeah, I mean, it goes up to size. Like, I mean, like 200 pounds, right?

[00:11:06] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:06] And I’m like, what the hell is happening

[00:11:09] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:09] over there?

[00:11:12] Just as it’s surprising how.

[00:11:15] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:15] Little

[00:11:16] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:16] people see themselves in each other and have any sense of what their body size

[00:11:23] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:23] really is

[00:11:24] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:24] anyway. And I blame that on diet culture and this idea that everybody’s supposed to be thin, so we can’t really talk about.

[00:11:34] Lindley Ashline: [00:11:34] Yeah, and we have to assume, I’m going to get off into attention now, but like we assume culturally is that we hear these numbers that are thrown out there as like, Oh, well as long as you’re not 400 pounds. Or, you know, okay, but you know, what about somebody who weighs 300 pounds? It’s like the limits of our imagination about bodies.

[00:11:58] And so when we need somebody who weighs 300 pounds or four pounds or 500 pounds, we don’t know. We don’t know what that looks like, but that also, it also varies really, really, really, really, really widely. Among bodies. So we also really hard to tell. Uh, I weigh 270 pounds because I don’t dye it. My weight is very stable.

[00:12:16] I haven’t been weighed in three years, and I can, I can tell you that it’s 270 pounds because it doesn’t change. And I wear a size 26 28. I have a friend who wears a size 26 28 who weighs a hundred 125 pounds more than I do. Uh, in a Facebook group yesterday in a discussion, I happened to see somebody who weighs 270 pounds and wears a size 14, 16.

[00:12:42] And so these are the, yeah, the range is really, wow. Just dependent on your body shape and how you carry your weight. And also, I don’t know, we, we joke, we joke about my friend and I who wear the this clothing size, but we’re a hundred 125 pounds apart. We joke about one of us being very fluffy and one of us be very dense.

[00:13:00] Because otherwise, how does that work? How does that work?

[00:13:03] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:03] When have you as a feather? One of eco rock?

[00:13:07] Lindley Ashline: [00:13:07] Yeah, the feather in the bag of feathers in a bag. So yeah, so you just, you know, human, human bodies are wild and variable and you, and you can’t, you cannot tell what somebody’s ways by looking at them clearly.

[00:13:21] But also it means that when we do encounter somebody. Two ways. One of these numbers that we assigned to the four, this limits of our imagination about bodies. We’re like, Oh, that’s an actual body that exists. Oh, Oh, that’s what that looks like, because we don’t have any frame of reference. Right. It’s just sort of this boogeyman number.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:42] Right. Because we don’t, we don’t actually talk about numbers and size, and that’s why I wanted to start with numbers and size is like people don’t have really any idea what, you know, what’s out there in the world.

[00:13:54] Lindley Ashline: [00:13:54] Right, right. And you know, and now they, now that you have that number, you know, 270 pounds, size 26 28 you can go look at my website and you can see my body.

[00:14:04] And you can see what that looks like, but it’s only one data point. You know? That’s not right. Lindley’s body is the representation of what 270 pounds looks like, because again,

[00:14:13] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:13] no, but it is one. Yeah. Yeah. But it is good to look at that. And when you’re like 26 28 you’re four X, like, I know this varies quite a lot, but if you were going to go buy a.

[00:14:25] A tee shirt and you’re like four X five

[00:14:29] Lindley Ashline: [00:14:29] it depends on the brand. And if it’s one of the newer Chinese brands, it’s like a 12 X. Right?

[00:14:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:35] Cause that cause they’re enormous. The numbers go really like, yeah, for the same thing. I was very surprised how all of that is working. So what do I want to ask you? I want to ask you something about how, how is that for you?

[00:14:51] Like how is. How is it to be fat positive in your life?

[00:14:58] Lindley Ashline: [00:14:58] Uh, for me it has been relatively easy. My family is not on the same page as I am, but we’re Southern, so we will use, we use our words very strategically, which means we, we, we also don’t use our words very strategically. So mostly we just don’t talk about it and pieces maintained.

[00:15:17] And because body acceptance and fat liberation and fat positivity are, because I have been involved in the movement for. A decade now actively. And because I run my own business where that, that liberation is also the basis of the business. And because I moved cross country during, uh, during the period of my activism, I have deliberately structured my life so that I am surrounded by people.

[00:15:51] Who are at various points in their own body acceptance journeys, but are mostly diet talk free. And mostly, uh, you know, mostly I get to hang out with people who believe in what I’m doing, which is a huge village and, and a wonderful. Joy most of the time because we get to have conversations. I don’t have to have the, you know, show me the science that says that that bodies can become sin and in the long term, because it doesn’t exist, you know, I don’t have to have that conversation every second.

[00:16:20] I don’t have to go to PTA to meetings where I’m surrounded by diet talk. I don’t have to go into an office. Most of the time I do some corporate work part time and there’s some that culture there and it’s a really good reminder of. The privilege that I have in my life to not have to encounter that constantly, but mostly I will have to, uh, and I have surrounded myself with really amazing body-positive friends and you know, and so in my life, that looks pretty easy.

[00:16:48] The, the worst that I deal with as far as people being nasty about my body is Instagram trolls, basically. And that is something that every activist. Deals with to a certain extent.

[00:17:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:00] Yep. Thank you. Thank you for that look. I mean, I think all of those things where it’s like you’ve structured your life so that it is easy.

[00:17:07] The, I think there’s a a piece in there about having destruction in your life that if you don’t, so I’ve been fat positive for a long time, but it’s only the last few years that I’ve been working to structure my life so that the people who are. Like literally physically in my life actually are either fat, fat, positive, or some version of a fat ally.

[00:17:28] Like they’re, they’re not going to talk about diet talk stuff. Um, and when I moved here, so it’s been not quite a year that I lived in Redwood city. What I noticed is making new friends, I have to kind of go through some of it again, where like I sat down to dinner with another fat woman, or I was like, Oh great.

[00:17:47] She seems so positive. This is going great. And immediately she starts talking about keto and weight loss and diet. And I was like

[00:17:55] Lindley Ashline: [00:17:55] shocked.

[00:17:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:56] Like I was like, I haven’t dealt with this in a long time. And it was this reminder. Kind of like, Oh, right. Just because people are fat doesn’t mean that they’re fat positive.

[00:18:05] And just because they’re in similar circles doesn’t mean that they’re, you know, necessarily fat positive. And I started tried to set boundaries with her and say, I don’t really want to talk about that. And, and what I noticed was we’re not friends. I couldn’t get her to stop talking about her

[00:18:24] Lindley Ashline: [00:18:24] dieting.

[00:18:25] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:25] And.

[00:18:26] I kind of didn’t know what to do. Like it had been so long since I had had to say to someone, look, I don’t, I don’t want to talk to you about that. Like I don’t, I don’t want diet talk in this space. Yeah. It’s been a very interesting journey of Regan making friends, moving, like moving. I didn’t move cross country, but you have been finding it quite challenging.

[00:18:45] So I’m glad to hear that. It feels like it’s, it’s easy. You know that you’ve been able to create spaces for yourself and the. And there’s a way that it’s kind of a bummer that you have to create spaces that are gonna work for you. But I think in some way, like we all have to create spaces that are going to work for us.

[00:19:00] And some of us has had the privilege of being able to do that, I think. And, and some folks less so. So I’m very. Overjoyed that you’re like fighting for any space

[00:19:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:19:09] for that. Yeah, and, and because I am an introvert and most of my work takes place right here at my computer desk where I’m sitting now, you know, as a photographer, you know, I’m out photographing, but I’m photographing with specific people.

[00:19:24] And then, you know, and generally, generally it’s, if somebody comes to work with me, they’re going to be bought into what I’m doing because it’s, it’s really hard to. Ignore all the signals I put out. When you come in as a client, you know, I have a whole guide up front where we talk about, I’m not going to Photoshop you if you’re dieting.

[00:19:41] You know, I’m not going to tell you you can’t be my client, but we’re not going to talk about that here. You know, I have all kinds of of boundaries in place that are, they’re both, you know, both for my protection, because if we’re in this vulnerable moment, you know, and I’ve got a camera in my hand, it’s going to be really hard for me to represent you in an honest and vulnerable way.

[00:19:58] If I’m also having to have the diet talk. Boundary setting in person. So I have a whole series of business boundaries set up where by the time you meet me in person. People who have or have not, people who have not confronted basic levels of diet, culture within themselves don’t generally make it all the way to meeting maybe these days, but I will say when I started setting those boundaries, I’m not going to participate in diet talk.

[00:20:24] I’m not going to sympathize with you while you bash your body. I’m not going to share your weight loss is your body. You get to do what you want with it, but I’m not going to congratulate you on your weight loss surgery. I’m going to congratulate you on. Taking charge in your own life and making your own decisions.

[00:20:41] And then, you know, and then I’m gonna, I’m going to tell you that you, you’re the sovereign of your own life, but I’m not also not going to be like, yeah, about your weight loss retreat. I’m just not. And I have lost friends that way. But when I started setting those boundaries, and when I, when I started doing my photographic work in 2015.

[00:21:01] And started posting photos of half naked fat ladies on my Facebook, because that’s essentially what I do. Uh, among many other things. I was afraid that I wouldn’t have any friends left. You know, I had just moved cross country a year before and I was making some friends, but my Facebook community, my personal friends lists was full of old coworkers and family members and who are, who were.

[00:21:29] Generally pretty conservative and all these acquaintances and friends that I’ve made along the way. And then the random semi strangers you accumulate on your, on your Facebook, you know? And I just, I figured I would have three friends left the next day. The first time I posted one of those photos. And what I found was that as I started setting boundaries around my body and around dire culture and started.

[00:21:53] Really, I started, I went from being very quiet about my body positivity. I started out as positive. So, you know, body is great. And now, and you know, maybe in 2011 or 2012 when I started posting outfit of the day pictures, you know, it was very much a, I can look cute too. And now I am. Well, a lawn roaring ranting.

[00:22:18] Yeah, boundary setting, bad-ass that liberation activist people have self selected out along the way. You know, some of my old coworkers before I moved, I was taking voice lessons, which was a lot of fun and a lot of the, um, quite a few of the acquaintances that I had made through that were Mormon. And for a lot of my Mormon friends, like the half naked fat ladies was not going to fly.

[00:22:46] You know? And so I lost a lot of my Mormon friends and people. I mean, and nobody, nobody came to me and was like, you’re the worst. I’m leaving. You know, people just quietly unfriended. And that was fine because I don’t want to inflict things on them that are in line with their value systems, of course, because again, they have sovereignty over their own lives and bodies and Facebook feeds.

[00:23:07] But what it meant was that it made room for the people who thought that was the best. You know, I recently changed my newsletter to be even more fat, liberation based. That’s the, the body liberation guide that we’ve talked about that we’ve mentioned, and I’m losing people, but I’m gaining people people faster than I’m losing because wishy washy.

[00:23:29] You know, by either great. That was good for me at that time and that’s, that’s good for, for many, many, many people. And that has a really valuable role in body acceptance. But I’m at a point where I’m like, I’m not doing one Oh one anymore. I’m doing like two Oh one and three Oh one in my own life and in my work.

[00:23:46] And people are hungry for that. And so I was, I was afraid when I started setting boundaries that, and really being open about my work, that I was just going to lose everybody in my life. But a surprising number of people were like, no, this is awesome sticker. You know, we’re going to stick around. And again, I mean, you know, I just find more people like that everyday.

[00:24:06] And again, I want to, I want to be really clear that I’m talking about this in the context of a very progressive life. You know, I have a financial safety net to do this work. I have the ability to work out of my own home. I don’t have kids so. Again, I have a lot of control over my life. And when I talk about these things, I’m always very clear to point out that privilege and that level of control that I’m able to have because I have health insurance through my husband who works a standard corporate job.

[00:24:38] Uh, and so I could say when I, when I was finally ready to start addressing my anxiety disorder, um, I w I was able to say I’m only going to see a health at every size therapist. I’m not going to see anybody who’s, who’s not aligned with health every size, because that was very important to me because I, I would be devastating if I’m like pouring out my heart and, and my therapist says, well, maybe if you lost some weight.

[00:25:03] Well, for me, for me, I couldn’t be, I couldn’t be vulnerable in, in a treatment space. And also have to do. Right bodies one Oh one. Um, I couldn’t, you know, I just can’t do that. And so again, because of my geographic location and the, because of my privilege, financial and, and time privilege and everything else, I was able to say, Nope, there are three.

[00:25:25] At the time, I knew of three health at every size therapist in the Seattle area. There’s, there are more. But at the time I knew of three and I said, which one of you is it going to be? Because I was able to do that. So being able to structure your life. Where you’re not constantly having to defend your body is, is a real privilege.

[00:25:44] And, and it’s something that everyone can work towards in some capacity, but the structure of your personal life is going to dictate a lot of what you have access to.

[00:25:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:53] Um, let’s talk about your, we, the, so my next question is about fat love. And, um, what is your. What is your fat

[00:26:03] Lindley Ashline: [00:26:03] love? As you may have noticed, I love telling stories.

[00:26:08] I love telling stories, and I love telling in my personal life, I love telling you long meandering stories with lots of context and lots of detail and Tanzania and, and coffee breaks and you know, give me the dance and I’ll keep the story going for a couple of days. Uh, and we don’t go, please.

[00:26:30] Occasionally my husband will set boundaries and say, okay, but what was the point?

[00:26:37] Because to me, all the context around something is very important. But I love telling stories, and as I have started, you know, as I started my photographic work, I already knew that I wanted to work with fat folks because that is. You know, again, again, at that point, that was 2015 I had already been in the the, the fat acceptance world for many years at that point.

[00:27:02] And so I knew that my audience was that folks, but I just knew that that was a market need that wasn’t being filled over the last four years as I have done this work. What I’m discovering is it’s of course the physical representation is important, but also these are stories that aren’t being told. Yes.

[00:27:23] And, and, and their stories, not theirs. Not just, you know, in the, here’s a body, that’s the type of body that’s not being shown, but the stories of the stories that get written in our skin. And as in a story I like to tell about stories is last year in 2019 I photographed a woman in salt Lake city. Uh, an older woman who had had open heart surgery and she has a large visible scar right down the center of her chest.

[00:27:53] Um, it is very, you know, you’re not gonna miss it and it’s, it’s the same color as the rest of her skin, but it’s, it’s a very visible scar. It’s probably two and a half, three inches long. And. I was very limited in the amount of time I was traveling through that day in my car and was on my way somewhere else.

[00:28:10] And so we had a very limited amount of time to work together, but just in the 45 minutes that we had. Uh, it was amazing to see the transition because she started out, um, being very protective of that area. She was perfectly willing to, because these were, um, these were, this was a fine art modeling session that she had, that we had arranged.

[00:28:32] And she was perfectly willing to, uh, to go down to her, her bra and panties. But she was very protective of that area. And. By the end of the session, by the end of the, just that 45 minutes, she was willing to allow me to photograph that and then she was willing to tell me her story. And I’m just more and more fascinated by the way that our story show up in our skin.

[00:28:55] You know, we have crow’s feet because we, the smiled, we have scars because things have happened to us. We have, you know, we have, I don’t know, I have freckles because I’m part Scottish, you know, all these that you’d think that we’re born with. And. You know, and, and even just my body size, I’m going to use my cell phone as living Pymble here.

[00:29:13] Um, my body size dictates the way I move through the world. It dictates my experience in the world and it shapes my story. And so even when I’m just photographing somebody in a specific body size, like that’s, it’s helping to tell their story and the way that their story is both influenced by and reflected in their skin.

[00:29:32] And. Telling me stories is just vital because we only, you know, with, with the media we have how many TV channels and how many, how many websites, media, websites, and how many, how many, everything, how many magazines, how many Instagrams are out there that are run by companies. Not people, not individuals. But the stories that we find on those are so limited and they only, we only talk about.

[00:30:02] Certain bodies. And so we don’t get the stories of, for example, women who gain weight in pregnancy and then the weight stays. Everything is about, Oh, look at the celebrity who lost all the baby weight in three and a half days. PS, Photoshop. Um, look at, you know, look, here are 15 ways to lose the baby weight.

[00:30:25] We don’t ha, we don’t have a story, a cultural story. We don’t have a cultural meme or Trobe or, or pathway for. This woman gained weight in pregnancy and it stayed. This woman, you know, this woman gained, she’d striped my stretch marks at puberty and they stayed. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s a very profit driven set of stories about any, here’s how to fix yourself.

[00:30:50] You loser, you, you ugly, you know, sell, fix yourself because that’s profitable. And so the stories I’m telling her exactly the opposite.

[00:30:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:30:59] So the cultural stories that we have are, if you get fat, there’s something wrong with you, like morally wrong. Right? And so all of those stories about bodies that are changing or have changed in the sort of

[00:31:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:31:13] cultural

[00:31:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:14] pro, you know, for-profit narrative are all that those bodies changed because there’s something morally wrong that you are morally obligated to fix or change, right?

[00:31:25] It’s not just that we don’t tell the other story. You know, we don’t tell anybody else’s stories. It’s that if we do tell them they are discounted and shamed and. You know, all of these different things. And so we never tell the stories of, you know, beautiful fat people, or, you know, something changed and it’s fine, you know, or this is how my body just came to be this way and isn’t, you know, isn’t this kind of an amazing story?

[00:31:50] We just don’t tell that. So I’m super like, I’m super into your work and the telling of the visual, telling your stories. Um, especially.

[00:32:01] Lindley Ashline: [00:32:01] Yeah. Thank you. And, and even, uh, of course, when I work with clients in my, in my portrait and boudoir photography, you know, we’re telling very personal stories. And of course, not all of those make it to the internet because, you know, so when someone comes in as a private client for our portrait boudoir work, um, they get to dictate what level of privacy they want their photos to have.

[00:32:21] So some people want this story shared and some people are doing that. You know, for a partner or for themselves, and you know, they’re keeping those stories close help, which of course is completely fine. But even with the stock photos, when I started doing stock photos, and if anybody’s not familiar with stock photos, those are commercial use photos.

[00:32:39] Those are, most companies aren’t big enough to have the budget to just hire a photographer and do their own and just create their own photos for a particular. Thing. Like if you see a photo in advertising of maybe a woman who was eating the salad and laughing. Um, to use like the most cliche stock photo ever.

[00:32:58] Um, like, that company usually isn’t, you know, they didn’t go, like hire a lady to laugh and eat salad and a photographer that, that’s a stock photo. Um, and there are many, many stock photo websites out there. Some of them are very large, like  stock or Getty. Uh, and then all the way down to little Indy. Indie powerhouses like me.

[00:33:18] So, so when I started creating stock photos, I was just thinking about it in terms of, uh, an income stream for my business in the sense that nobody else was creating stock photos, a fat people, literally nobody, nobody on the planet was creating stock photos of that people. That’s how little that story was being told.

[00:33:39] And that’s, that’s part of what year was that? That was 2016. Nobody.

[00:33:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:44] So that was just four years ago,

[00:33:47] Lindley Ashline: [00:33:47] and now it’s me and one one other organizations. That’s it.

[00:33:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:33:53] So I just want to notice that in 2020 we’ve had stock photos of fat people for four years. Right. And people have been using stock photos for, I don’t know.

[00:34:05] Dozens and dozens of years. Right. Like they’re just super, super standard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that is, that’s huge, right? Just that we like. I use your stock photos, I’m on my website and you know, unless they’re, unless they’re photos of me, um, I use stock photos, right, of like, you know, people in groups or whatever.

[00:34:28] Yeah. Except I managed to do one photo shoot with someone who came in and photographed me at a team meeting. So we have a couple of those that are like really good. And then mostly it’s, you know, it’s tacos cause that’s what. You know, they’re well lit and they’re beautiful and they have the right colors.

[00:34:45] And like I was just kind of the standard what everybody uses on their, on their website. But you know, for a long time I’ve been very dissatisfied. When I first put my website up and I don’t even know more than 10 years ago, I was like. I, you know, I paid for all of my sock photos, but I was like, this is really unsatisfying.

[00:35:04] So I use a lot of sunflowers.

[00:35:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:35:09] People tell me that they, that they have done, because particularly when you are working specifically, you know, partner, all of your target audience is, is fat folks. And that’s who you specialize in working with whatever your business is. And then there aren’t any representative photos. And your choices are people whose bodies don’t reflect.

[00:35:26] Your market or a Greenfield. And so you see on on on health at every size therapist websites, you see a lot of like sunsets and that’s pretty easy. That’s nice too. Don’t get me wrong, but it’s like just because there have been so few options.

[00:35:43] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:43] Yeah, lady bugs. I was like some flowers

[00:35:46] Lindley Ashline: [00:35:46] lady. I mean, I’m a nature photographer as well.

[00:35:50] I can appreciate some lady bugs.

[00:35:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:35:54] They’re beautiful, right? But they’re not fat bodies doing it. You know? There’s no fat bodies in lady bags and sunsets. Right.

[00:36:03] Lindley Ashline: [00:36:03] Yeah. And so telling, being able to, yeah. So when I started, it was sort of a market, you know, here’s the market need that needs to be filled. This is something I can do really well.

[00:36:13] Great. But then it eventually became clear that the, it’s not just photos of people, it’s adding stories to our cultural narratives. It’s expanding. When I was thinking about becoming a photographer. Um, I, I’ve been a nature photographer for, I don’t know, 15 years, many, many years. Uh, but when I started thinking about photography as a career, it took me, I dunno, 10 years before I was able to able to really seriously consider it because I had never seen a fat photographer.

[00:36:41] I had never met one, never even heard of one. And now there are many out there, uh, that I now know through the magic of the internet. But at the time, I was like, I can’t be a fat photographer who would hire one the who would want a fab photographer, their wedding, et cetera. And so when I’m producing these stock photos, somebody who has never seen a fat female weightlifter before, someone who has never seen a woman doing yoga, who is missing a limb.

[00:37:10] Who has a limb difference? Someone who has never seen a young black man like them. Do any yoga pose? Someone who, and most of the people I do I work with are fat folks. But, but the more, the more people I can get who are outside mainstream beauty standards, the better. So I have, you know, I have a list of lots of different types of folks who model for me.

[00:37:30] Um, but somebody who’s never seen a fat photographer. Look now, you know one, you too. You too can do this. You know? Just expanding the stories that we’re able to tell that that exists in some media format for us to tell is what’s really satisfying to me these days.

[00:37:53] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:53] Yeah. Because if you can imagine it, you can, you can at least attempt it.

[00:37:58] Right, right. But he can’t imagine it right then. Then. You can’t, you can’t do it right. It just does not. It’s not possible for you because it doesn’t enter your realm of possibilities. Right. And so I think telling all these stories for, you know, every, for everyone, but especially all the marginalized groups, I think it’s really important that we have, you know, more black folks.

[00:38:19] Represented everywhere. Right. Um, more folks with natural hair, more fat people, more disabled people, more people in wheelchairs, more, you know, like all of these things so that people get to know and see and understand. These are just normal. These are also normal regular bodies.

[00:38:36] Lindley Ashline: [00:38:36] Right?

[00:38:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:36] Right. These are bodies are totally

[00:38:38] Lindley Ashline: [00:38:38] normal.

[00:38:39] Yeah. And of course, you know, of course it’s important that that people who the body has happened to be closer to you cultural. Standards of beauty or attractiveness. Of course, it’s important that those stories get told too, but right now, most of those stories, most of the stories that are being told are closer to those stories

[00:38:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:57] or are those stories right?

[00:38:58] I mean, that’s the closer you are to the center, the more your stories are stories that look like you get told. And so it is important to shift and recenter our culture, you know, and have more normal bodies and normal stories in.

[00:39:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:39:13] People will be able

[00:39:14] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:14] to share what’s going on. Cause the more like, I like to think of it in terms of we’re built for connection and all of the centering on one kind of body or one kind of thing disconnects us from the truth of who we are.

[00:39:27] Lindley Ashline: [00:39:27] And it disconnects us from being able to see, to come back to what we were talking about earlier about seeing bodies. It disconnects us from being able to see that I once had an office job a number of years ago where I happened to be in the department that I was in a marketing department. I happen to be.

[00:39:43] A significantly larger than everyone else there. And I was having a conversation one day with someone who, uh, I think I had casually mentioned that I need as a new dress pants or something. And she had directed me to a store that. Didn’t even remotely carry my size, and it was well-intended, I wasn’t mad at her or anything.

[00:40:02] I just bought, I also, I was a baby fat activist at that point, and I kind of wanted to make a, a gentle point about it. And so I did. And rather than just saying, Oh, thanks, I’ll go over there and check it out. I said, Oh, you know, they don’t carry my size. And she was genuinely shocked. Um, because, and part of that is the way that I carry my weight.

[00:40:21] I also have some privilege in that, and that I am a pair of shape that, uh, appears. My understanding is that it appears a little smaller than it is. So there’s also, there’s also that I also, I also have a shape that, um, that many of the mainstream plus size clothing stores do, um, theater too. So it means that in general, and by many, I mean, Torrid.

[00:40:45] So most of my things for these days, but toward habit tore it happens to one of their fit models. Must be. Pretty similar to mine. So the, the, the point is that being able to buy clothing that makes you look smaller, even if you’re not doing it on purpose, is also a privilege. So point B, point B, you see about my stories.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:07] The point is that, uh, she was genuinely shocked when I told her my Clinton’s size and where it started going off the rails is that then she didn’t believe me. Yeah. I mean, it was a very polite disbelief, but she literally did not believe me. When I said 26 28 I ended up turning around and Pauline the tag out from my pants that I was wearing that day and like forcing her to look at the tag because I’m like, no, really, this is, and she was genuinely shocked because she didn’t have a cultural narrative.

[00:41:34] This isn’t nothing to do with her as a person. Very nice person, but she didn’t have a cultural narrative for what a size 26 28 look like, or that OSI, somebody who wears that size could be working next to her in office. Like, it just wasn’t, it wasn’t a story that she knew how to, um, or that she had available to her.

[00:41:52] And so every time, you know, and I, I talk about this work that I do, and this is, you know, other than my little bit of corporate part time work that I do, this is my full time. This is what I do. And it’s easy to think, well, if I don’t, you know, if I can’t do this full time, if I can’t. If I’m not a photographer or I’m not a writer or I’m not a journalist, I’m not a podcaster, like, what am I supposed to do?

[00:42:17] Like there’s nothing useful that I can do for body acceptance. Every fat person who just lives their life. And does what they’re able to in their lives to, uh, to set boundaries around diet, talk in their space, and to raise their kids. As someone who’s not a parent. Parents, your role is vital. It’s vital.

[00:42:41] You are literally raising a generation of people who can be like, screwed agriculture. We’re done. You know, you, you have the power. You have the power to put WeightWatchers out of business. You do and  and every time you teach your kids that fat is not a bad word. Every time you don’t go to a weight Watchers meeting, every time you tell your uncle that he, that you’re setting a boundary and he’s no longer allowed to come in on your way to Thanksgiving every time you show up and participate in your own life.

[00:43:16] Unapologetically. You’re doing the thing, you’re making the difference. And in the aggregate you have at least as much power as I do to change the cultural conversation. So don’t ever feel like you’re powerless, because even if you’re not doing any of those activism things I just talked about, even if you’re just showing up, you’re still showing up and in somebody else’s life you’re creating that story.

[00:43:41] Yes,

[00:43:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:43:42] that’s right. Just by existing and refusing to hide yourself in your body and your being this, it makes a difference. And you know, right now, pho fat positivity is, I don’t know if I want to use the word trending, but like it’s, you know, we’re in this place where it’s, it’s getting bigger and bigger. So it’s great to see.

[00:44:02] So just showing up makes a difference because this is something that people are starting to look at and, and think about and talk about. Um, more. More

[00:44:09] Lindley Ashline: [00:44:09] intelligently,

[00:44:10] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:10] like with more analysis, I think, than we ever have. And with more support towards fat bodies and other kinds of bodies. So, um. Yeah. Thank you so much for showing up here.

[00:44:22] This has been great. Do you have any, um, last words for our, our

[00:44:28] Lindley Ashline: [00:44:28] listeners? I do. Actually. I want to talk about Facebook activism now that now that we’re talking about things you can do in your own life, because there’s a lot of scorn, I think that we direct towards maybe armchair activism or. Oh, well, you’re sharing, you’re sharing things on Facebook, but what else are you doing?

[00:44:43] And that’s an important point. Don’t get me wrong, but I also want to talk about the power that sharing things on Facebook hats and things, Jerry and on Instagram, and you know, it’s, if you’re a business owner, buying one. Fat song photo and putting it on your website, that kind of sort of semi-active activism, I guess I would call it, where you’re sharing things, but maybe it’s not something that you have created or written and, and you’re doing that, you know, in your personal life.

[00:45:10] It can be really hard. And I want to respect that. Uh, for me, I’ve been. Creating controversy, all my social feeds for so long now by talking about anti diet concepts that I’m kind of used to people being mad at me at this point. But taking that first step it DePaul hard, you know, and say, I mean, even when it’s, even when it’s something as relatively non-controversial as just maybe there’s a meme that you’ve found, it’s like a, you know, just, and maybe it just says love your body and a beautiful font, and then maybe it has like a small fat.

[00:45:46] You know, white woman on it, that is, that is like cradling her, her tiny belly roll or something. You know this like the mildest body positive content you can get depending on where you have been in your life. Sharing that can be really scary and really hard. And I don’t, I want to, I want to sort of tip my hat to everyone who has taken that stuff because it can be really scary to say, okay, but what if my aunt.

[00:46:12] I dunno. Sorry. To everyone who’s named June, what if my hand shoot, what if my aunt June comes in, swoops in like she does everything skipping and yelled at me about how I’m going to die of the diabetes I don’t actually have because of my fat. What if? What if this is another place, you know, for people to brow beat me?

[00:46:29] What if this is another, you know what’s going to happen if I post this? That is hard and scary and it makes a difference. When I started, you know, I’ve talked about how when I started sharing things, I did start very, very, very gently. Uh, about a year before I started posting half naked VAT, ladies and I started posting deliberately posting body positive things on my timeline on Facebook, and I didn’t get as much pushback as I expected.

[00:46:55] Um, I did get quite a few people going, Oh, that’s nice. You know, that’s great. And you know, and people did self-select in or out, depending on whether they wanted to continue seeing that. But you’re making a difference. When I had been posting a naked fat ladies for about a year, uh, a cousin of mine who is quite a bit older than I am, and who, I don’t.

[00:47:14] I have never gotten to know as well as I would actually like to, but she messaged me, and this is somebody that I had not assumed would be into what I was doing, and she messaged me and she said, you’ve made a fundamental difference in my life. And she wasn’t necessarily engaging with things publicly, possibly because she was afraid that liking a bunch of my stuff on Facebook was going to cause problems for her.

[00:47:37] I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know her, but, but people do come to me. I’ve had relatives, I’ve had acquaintances and friends come to me privately. And, B, you have changed my life. Just. From sharing things on Facebook and they aren’t. There aren’t always the people who engage with me publicly. They are always the people who were like commenting and be like, yeah, you know, sometimes, sometimes they’re just quietly listening, but people, when you take any kind of stand, even if, if it’s the smallest possible fan, people are looking and listening and you know, there may be some scorn in the activism community about, you know, Facebook activism.

[00:48:14] But I really think it’s one of the most important things that you can do, but typically, if you pill feel powerless to do anything else, if you can share the one thing that has affected you most that day, maybe this podcast,

[00:48:30] maybe this podcast, then uh, then you are also doing the work. This is your official permission to do that. And this is your official notice that you weren’t doing the work of activism and that you’re doing good work. Just

[00:48:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:45] show up and it can be a way, I mean, it’s great for other people, but it’s also a great way to claim your own power and to take a stand and hold your own space about what’s important to

[00:48:56] Lindley Ashline: [00:48:56] you.

[00:48:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:57] Yeah. You know? Yeah. If you got to start somewhere, start here, podcasts, start with whatever, you know, whatever it feels like it’s really gonna work for you. Because it is also true that if you start somewhere. It’s a place to start it and it can grow from there. You can do more as you feel more empowered, as you understand that things that you’re able to have effect in the world and you can, you know, you can make a difference.

[00:49:25] And you do. And you know, and we all make a difference. You know, we all touch people’s lives, so it’s definitely an opportunity to touch lives. Thank you so much. So do you want to tell people again where they can find you?

[00:49:37] Lindley Ashline: [00:49:37] Yes, my good. My name is Lindley Ashline and because that is both hard to pronounce and spell.

[00:49:43] And remember I chose a website domain that is much easier to remember. So you can always find me@bodyliberationphotos.com. And the thing that I’m most excited about sharing with you right now is the body liberation guy, which was mentioned earlier. That is my weekly email newsletter, and it’s a really great newsletter.

[00:50:02] I promise. So many times we here sign up for my newsletter and we go, Oh, but this is Gary. I guarantee you this will be the most useful newsletter that you will sign up for this year. In whatever year you hear this podcast cause I’m that proud of it. And usually I’m not a, I’m not a big sales person in my, in my, in my work.

[00:50:23] So that’s how proud I am. Like, I stand behind this, um, every week it has some kind of personal thought from me on body liberation and it has, uh, it has a set of resources that are super easy to access and to go back and find, uh, in the last couple of weeks I have talked about how to find a doctor who is aligned with all their resize.

[00:50:41] Uh, I’ve talked about what is intuitive eating. Um, and these are, these are super quick resource guides. Um, actually this past week I did a, a very quick guide to the word fat, uh, about why people have chosen to reclaim that, what it means, what it means to reclaim that, about, about the size categories that I talked about earlier, small, fat, large fat.

[00:51:04] How do I tell what I am? Uh, and these are, like I said, super quick. List of resources that take, if you click through to every single thing, it might take you half an hour. And, uh, and yeah, I’m, I’m really, I’m really proud of what I’ve created that I’m creating. And so, uh, so if you’re going to, if you’re going to look up anything at all, go to body liberation photos.com and head over to body liberation guide is at the top of the page with the rest of the links.

[00:51:28] Uh, my Instagram is  body liberation with Lindley. And again, this is all linked off the website. I’m not a big Twitter

[00:51:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:36] person in the show notes, you’ll find that in the show notes as well.

[00:51:39] Lindley Ashline: [00:51:39] I’m not a big Twitter person, so I don’t tend to do a whole lot there. But you’re welcome to follow me at Lindley Ashline and my Facebook page is body liberation with Lindley Ashline.

[00:51:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:49] And you’re still doing the body liberation boxes or the body

[00:51:52] Lindley Ashline: [00:51:52] positive. That is the body love box. And I can’t believe that I,

[00:51:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:58] I love them. So I have bought a couple of them. Um, I’m not a big subscription person and I’m kind of, my. My sweetheart is a minimalist. So I rarely bring physical objects in the house unless I have to.

[00:52:10] But I bought a couple of them. One of them was a mermaid, one that I got for my sister, and she loved it. I actually, I opened it and took a couple of things out of it, and then I gave the rest of the thing there was like, perfect. I was like, Oh, there’s some things for her. And sometimes for me, um, and I bought and I’ve got the unicorn went.

[00:52:26] I was like, Oh, these are so good. So if you’re like. If you want more body positive body love, things like physical objects, um, you can have, you know, there’s like stickers and there was a, um,

[00:52:40] Lindley Ashline: [00:52:40] like a mermaid

[00:52:41] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:52:41] makeup brush and one and like a little, um, like a tea cozy and, um, Oh kinds of stuff. And, um, I, I love them.

[00:52:50] I think they’re fantastic. So I definitely recommend, um, checking them out. And of course, I love the stock photos, like I use them. You know, you can see them all over my website. Um, and yeah, Lindley is great. I really appreciate you coming here and hanging out with us and you’ll get all the information in the show notes, um, about where to find her.

[00:53:11] Thank you so much for being with us.

[00:53:13] Lindley Ashline: [00:53:13] Thanks for having me. Thanks for being had

[00:53:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:22] everybody. We’ll see you next time. This has been fat girl finds love a podcast about that. Love that sex and fat relationship. I’m your host, Brianna Kavanaugh. Thank you so much for listening. Please make sure to subscribe, like review and subscribe to my podcast, especially hit that subscribe button wherever you are, wherever you listen to podcasts, if you’d like.

[00:53:44] Stay connected and get updates when new episodes go live. When fat girl finds love does classes, giveaways, and special ed, please sign up to get emails and more at  dot com you could also find fat girl finds love on Instagram and Facebook. Thank you so much and see you next time on fat girl. Find blood.


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EP 03 – Fat Sex-cation with Xine Story LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

EP 03 – Fat Sex-cation with Xine Story LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

Ep 02 Fat Sex-cation with Xine Story LIVE at Desire, in Cancun!

 The Fat Sex Series!

This is a really fun episode with Xine Story! It was recorded while we were at Desire Riviera Maya – a swinger resort with a group call the Swingset Takes Desire!  We get deep in it and talk about so many sweet and sexy things inclduing having pleasure now even though you don’t love your body!


This was a lot of fun to do!


At one point we get interuprted for folks bringing us chocolate! You should be so lucky!


Come hang out with us and talk about having pleasure even if you don’t love your body,  having multiple partners, loving bi men and making sure there’s lots of space for hot bi men!

Show notes: Fat Sex Series! Fat Sex-cation with Xine Story Interview at Desire

  • Christine lives in the San Francisco Bay Area and, although busy, is always looking for new friends, community, and activity partners! If you’d like to get in touch, the best way is to send her a Facebook message or friend request (https://www.facebook.com/Xine.story) You may also email her at christineastory@gmail.com for a slower response. Also @RainyDayMondays on Instagram

    This was recorded at Desire Riviera Maya in Cancun. My sweetheart and I were there with the folks from Life on the SwingSet for a little event they call “Swingset takes Desire.” Desire is a swinger resort in Cancun Mexico that is taken over by a group of what I think of as freaks and queers: poly, swinger, kinky, queer, sex positive folks. Some new folks, lots of returners.

    I interviewed several people and this is one of those. They are a bit out of recording order because of various logistics like getting people’s bios and so on so ignore all that. These were recorded with my iPhone so I’ve done my best with the sound quality.

    Also reference Nomy Lamm – queer, fat icon. Who happens to be one of the fat queers that I also connected with in another place in Fat community. I met met Nomy at https://nolose.org/

    I reached out to her to see if she wanted to comment and this is what she said:

    “hi briana! this sounds amazing. my website is nomyteaches.com.

    you could also mention that I’m the creative director for Sins Invalid – sinsinvalid.org. also if people want access to the first issue of ‘i’m so ****ing beautiful’ (released in 1993!) here is a link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxM9mTeuGlNaUm5ScUtDNkVXc0k/view?usp=sharing

    So now you can reach out to Nomy and her work and see what a bad ass she is too!

    Also she’ll hopefully be on an upcoming episode and you can hear her yourselves!


    • how did you become sex positive? Christine: Oh, I was always a horny little ****.
    • On her partner struggling: not being able to communicate well meant that he didn’t have the words to describe how he felt or really to identify it so it was hard to talk about.
    • “Actually all, all of my partners are, are queer men currently, but his main interest is in, in guys like sexually. But he’s a varsity cuddler!”
    • On Bi men “There were a lot of men putting their mouths in a lot of places. And we like that!”
    • Queerness and queer invisibility and seeing internalized homophobia.
    • “You know, we didn’t know you were queer. We thought you were straight. And he’s just like. Well, I have the purple bead, I have the rainbow necklace, I have the rainbow bead. My toenails are painted rainbow. My fingernails are painted. I’m wearing ladies’ flip flops. More do I have to do?”
    • We give a lot of love to bi men!
    • “you don’t have to be 100% love your body to, to use it in a way that’s pleasurable”
    • Also @RainyDayMondays on Instagram



TRANSCRIPT: Christine Story podcast – Have Pleasure Now!

[00:00:15]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:15] so today we’re doing another guest interview about fat sex. Our guests are interview days. We get to learn from and about folks doing fat positive or fat positive adjacent work.  as a reminder, we don’t bleep out cuss words or swear words. We don’t edit for explicit material or content. So this is your content warning that this interview may contain. And hopefully will contain adult material and listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:41] Welcome to the podcast!

[00:00:42] We’re here today. I’m with Christina or Xine. I’m here at Desire. Um, it’s our Thursday, and this is the,

[00:00:50] Xine Story: [00:00:50] I think this

[00:00:50] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:50] is the fourth interview we’re doing now. Hi.

[00:00:53] Xine Story: [00:00:53] Hello.

[00:00:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:54] It’s great to have you.

[00:00:56] Xine Story: [00:00:56] Thank you.

[00:00:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:00:56] You’re another California person. [00:01:00] So I’m from, I’m, I live in Redwood city. And you were saying that you live in.

[00:01:04] Xine Story: [00:01:04] Yeah. I live in Pacifica.

[00:01:05] Too far away.

[00:01:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:06] Is that too far away? Bay area people. Yay. We had someone from Albuquerque and from East coast, and I was just talking to another person I might have on tomorrow who’s from North Carolina, and I kind of love that. People are

[00:01:19] from like,

[00:01:21] they’re from all over the place. Um, so I meant to ask you, I think folks, if you’ve listened to other ones of these, you know, I’m going to ask the, the fi vital statistics question, and then  I’m gonna ask you a bunch of other questions. So, um, so some vital stats. What, what, what race are you,

[00:01:41] Xine Story: [00:01:41] um, white,

[00:01:43] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:43] you think you and how old are you.

[00:01:46] Xine Story: [00:01:46] I will be

[00:01:46] 40, a few days.

[00:01:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:01:48] Yay. Happy birthday. do you have any other marginalized identity? Like are you queer, disabled? Um, we assume that you identify as fat, but you can say [00:02:00] that as well.

[00:02:02] Xine Story: [00:02:02] um, yeah, I

[00:02:03] identify as fat.

[00:02:05] Um, as bisexual as queer. As pansexual. I don’t want to inadvertently exclude anybody. Mmm.

[00:02:20] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:20] Awesome. That’s great.

[00:02:23] Um, and do you have any other marginalized  are you disabled or, you know,

[00:02:29] Xine Story: [00:02:29] I’m privileged in a lot of ways.

[00:02:31] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:02:31] Yeah. Yeah. There, it’s, uh, uh, folks who are here.

[00:02:36] It’s a lot of

[00:02:37] financial

[00:02:37] class

[00:02:38] privilege to be able to come on a vacation to Mexico and to be able to travel and to be able to spend money to come on a

[00:02:46] sex cation.

[00:02:47] Xine Story: [00:02:47] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:02:49] So where, how did you, how did you come to your fat

[00:02:53] identity? Um,

[00:02:57] so let’s

[00:02:59] see. [00:03:00] My birthday actually goes with the years, so in 19 94 I was about 14 and I was 1984 and so there were all these awesome right girls up in Seattle doing right girl things.  and I lived in the Florida suburbs, but I

[00:03:20] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:20] Not near Seattle,

[00:03:21] Xine Story: [00:03:21] not near Seattle, but I had a good friend named Christie who wouldn’t mind my giving her name. And she really got me into like pong getting right girl and feminism and. Introduced me to this fan zine and called, “I’m so ****ing beautiful inviting” Nomy Lamm, and it just

[00:03:39] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:03:39] Written by Nomy!! I Know me.

[00:03:40] It just really is amazing.

[00:03:42] Xine Story: [00:03:42] Yeah. And I mean, it, it really like changed my life in a lot of ways. Like it gave me, I think, words to say things that I might not have had words to say before. And, um, you know, so, so much other stuff. And like, I think Nomy [00:04:00] and a lot of.

[00:04:01] The

[00:04:02] really cool people that were coming out of that subculture were like a few years older than us, maybe like five to 10 years older than us. That’s so like they would have been maybe 20 at the time and they were just producing so much awesome this that somehow trickled down through the postal mail to like my suburban Florida home. And then. Know, I also went to, in 1996, there was this, yeah, the one and only,

[00:04:37]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:37] yeah. Awesome.

[00:04:39]Xine Story: [00:04:39] But um, yeah, so I was really influenced by her zine “I’m so ****ing beautiful.” And, um, it was great. And I, I still have copies from like 1994, you know, and those, those years of it, like in my room,

[00:04:53] I met Nommy, I think

[00:04:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:04:54] the first time at no lose.  several hundred, at least half a dozen years ago. [00:05:00] Anyway, it’s great to hear her name and yeah,

[00:05:03] Xine Story: [00:05:03] so I think she was probably a role model for a lot of younger girls and that that’s just so great. I like in 1996, um,

[00:05:12] there was this queer core festival in San Francisco called

[00:05:16] The Dirty Bird Festival that my friend Christie that I mentioned, and I took like a Greyhound out from Florida. And I remember her doing like a, it was like fat politics or something like that workshop at that festival. And it was also very influential. Um,

[00:05:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:36] that’s exciting. Have crossover of community.

[00:05:40] Xine Story: [00:05:40] Yeah.

[00:05:40] And um, you know,

[00:05:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:42] I,Christine and I are just meeting at this event. I think this is the first time we’ve had a conversation.

[00:05:48] Xine Story: [00:05:48] Yeah.

[00:05:50] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:50] So this is exciting.

[00:05:52] Xine Story: [00:05:52] Yeah. And, um,

[00:05:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:05:54] also the fat community is very small and awesome and awesome and awesome. Yeah.

[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Xine Story: [00:06:00] So like, I, I think that like punk and feminism and, and anarchism and stuff, like getting into that kind of stuff and especially, you know, like, like right girl, like the cultural product of riot girl really influenced me in a way that. The world didn’t destroy me. You know, like I, I think I met a number of people who didn’t have those experiences at a young age. And, you know, not that I was like self-confident as a teenager and not that I like thought I was beautiful or any of those things, but like, I, I got like that rebellious edge, you know? And so I was able to say like, “**** you!” To a lot of people and a lot of ideas. And so, you know, I, I don’t know. I think without that element of radical politics, I would have been able to do that. Even though there is a lot of like, fat shaming and misogyny and, and all sorts of things in, you know, different, different circles. And, [00:07:00] you know what I mean?

[00:07:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:01] Xine Story: [00:07:01] So, you know, like everything is, it’s a mixed bag, but,

[00:07:04] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:07:04] but it gives you space to be, to become who you are rather than who culture kind of wants you to be.

[00:07:09] Xine Story: [00:07:09] Absolutely. Yeah. And, um. Yeah. It just stayed with me my whole life, you know, the ability to do that. And then I, I’ve always like more than knowing people or like being part of the actual social communities because I, I’m quite shy and I’ve lived a, you know, in outside of areas that have necessarily had those communities. But I, I’ve always read a lot, and I’ve read a lot of like, social. It’s social commentary and like, you know, like fat commentary and feminist commentary.  I this just thinking of like words to use that would describe it. Like I, I would say like, instead of using those individual words, like also like I’ve, I’ve read a lot of like, you know, sociopolitical commentary that’s been linked, you know, very like radical and left, left wing and, and you know, [00:08:00] maybe I don’t want to use like specific words to describe it because a lot of words change over time and like even a lot of words that, you know, were positive when. Yeah. When I was younger, like 10 years ago, have changed connotations and like a younger generations take them differently. So it’s always hard to know like how to say things that are, how to give the true essence of what you’re saying when the words or the lexicon or whatever shifts so rapidly around us.

[00:08:25] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:08:25] Yes, that’s true. Because it’s easier

[00:08:29] for people to get offended or to not be able to hear you because you’re using language. . So how did you, so thank you for that. That was, that was lovely because it also brings in other parts of our communities, our shared communities. Um, how did you become

[00:08:47] sex positive?

[00:08:49] Xine Story: [00:08:49] Oh, I was always a horny little ****. Um, yeah, I just was always very open minded and sex positive. And, um. [00:09:00] Uh, I w I had it easy, really. I mean, in the sense that, you know, like I said, I was 14 in 1994 and what was happening in 1984, I mean, it was like Kristen over Silicon, Kurt Cobain, like smashing guitars and dresses on the stage, you know, and wearing black eyeliner and like by bisexuality was in Vogue and in a lot of ways, especially a women’s bisexuality, you know, so. I don’t know, even though I grew up in a conservative atmosphere, I don’t know that I had faced a lot of the homophobia and, uh, issues with root repression that some other folks have faced. Because like I, I just was, you know, a teenager in a time where. It was more invogue than not to be bisexual. And I say bisexual just because like I’ve been using that word and identifying it and you know, believe politically and rallying under it, right? Like, you know, for decades. And, um, [00:10:00] I, one coming out day, I said, I, I’m gonna come out as like by hyphen pan, because, you know, I mean, I don’t, I don’t want to call myself pansexual because I feel like it’s not the word I’ve been using for decades, and I don’t want to

[00:10:16] like, I believe that bisexual, the word bisexual,

[00:10:19] you know, means that I am attracted to any gender where I have the capacity to be romantically or sexually attracted to any gender. Um, but I know that some people have a different definition. And so it’s like what I said about like, changing lexicons it’s, it can be, yeah. Can be challenging.

[00:10:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:10:36] In the 90s it was the word

[00:10:37] that was the word, right. As bisexual. As we’ve, I think as a culture made this foray into having more trans folks and having that be more, having transfolks be able to be more out and supported and included. You know, there’s the, finally we’re having the conversation that there are more than two genders. And so, um, so [00:11:00] then the question is, do we still want to use the word bot, like

[00:11:02] the prefix BI, because now we’re talking about, now we know and we’re clear that we have more genders. And I think there’s a. Uh, um, I’ve been in the bisexual community for decades too. And um, I kind of gave up that word in the early aughts

[00:11:19] Xine Story: [00:11:19] to,

[00:11:19] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:11:19] you know, to use the word queer because it felt more inclusive and more focused on the community that I was actually dating. And then now coming back to my, like my bisexual community and the women that, you know, we’ve been known each other for 25 years or whatever. It’s like, some of them are really  set on using the word bisexual. And you know, others have moved on and. . This word specifically I think is doing a lot of this community around bisexuality and attendant things and do a lot of, um. Like moving and shifting around.  yeah. So, I hear you. I hear you on that. Um, so was your household growing up sex positive? [00:12:00] Um,

[00:12:02] Xine Story: [00:12:02] not really. I mean, it’s kinda funny to think of it as a household. Like, I, I’m an only child. I have a, my parents are a bit older. They’re not super religious. . They’re just like super mediocre. I mean, like I, I don’t think I’ve ever really talked to either one of them about sex. Like I think my mom told me about like the mechanisms of like PIV sex when I was in fourth grade because I was like talking so much **** about so much **** that like, she just wanted to like, and I was like, what? That’s what happens, you know? But yeah, I mean, not really. Like I, I’m not like my, I’ve had, I had a cat for like 10 years before my, I told my parents that I had a cat, so, you know, I’m not super close to them with stuff.

[00:12:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:12:49] yeah. I was just kind of probing into like, how there’s a way that it seems like. You know, sexuality itself is, you know, as [00:13:00] biological, like creatures, animals. We come into our sexuality like it’s a normal, natural thing.  the impression I get from other people when I’m talking about my sexuality, they’re always like, how did it happen?

[00:13:11] Xine Story: [00:13:11] And I was like, I

[00:13:13] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:13] dunno just

[00:13:14] Xine Story: [00:13:14] happened. Like, how did you have the realization or

[00:13:17] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:13:17] like what, how’d you become sex positive? How did you start having sex with all these people? And it’s like. I don’t know. That was 1993 that’s a long time ago.

[00:13:27] Xine Story: [00:13:27] Yeah. I think that I was just, I really was always just really interested in sex and you know, like even before I knew what it was, and a lot of that probably has to do with the way that, you know, our culture is seeped in, insects and, and stuff like that. But because of that, I was always reading things above my age level about sex. And. You know, in all different ways, like from seedy, romance novels to, to theory, and, you know, and then there’s, there were just [00:14:00] so many zines in the 90s that were sex positive and we’re queer positive, and we’re, um, just really rad and all, all different ways. So, yeah, I never, I guess I never, um. I, you know, I, I guess it’s more like anoutgrowth  of, other kind of values, like, you know, valuing open-mindedness and valuing like a non corporate consumer emphasis on culture and things like that.

[00:14:30] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:14:30] Tell us about your relationship structure. Like who are you in

[00:14:35] relationship with? How many

[00:14:36] people out is that. How’s that going for you?

[00:14:40] Xine Story: [00:14:40] um, so I have a partner who I live with and, uh, we’ve lived together 10 years. We’ve actually known each other for probably 30 years or 25 years. And, um, he’s kind of like a nesting

[00:14:57] partner, I guess you’d

[00:14:58] call it. [00:15:00] Um, we. Don’t have, uh, a very companionable relationship, uh, or a very affectionate or relationship in like, as in like, we don’t like cuddle a lot and stuff like that, but we live together in a studio apartment and I, I really don’t. I don’t think there’s anybody else I could live with in that small of a space. Um, but mainly it’s because he ignores me all the time. Which is kind of like, there’s two sides of that coin, I guess. So after about 10 years of, and you know, of course before this, I, I’ve had relationships, like, you know, short and longterm relationships with men and women. Um, so. But lately, you know, after mid relationship with him, I started having other lovers because I felt like I wasn’t getting the affection and companionship from him. And, and you know, he, he didn’t really want those things, so he didn’t care. I mean, he didn’t mind, you [00:16:00] know, like he just, no, no, no, no. So I’m like, yeah, he just wants to like, you know, hang out by himself and actually he’s, he’s dating like this. It’s so weird how things turn out. Like the irony, I won’t even go into this cause it’s like a whole another story. But anyway, so we became like officially polyamorous a couple of years ago and um, it’s actually working much better for us. And then it was with like my, just having lovers cause it turned out like he was also really lonely but just didn’t, um, like he was lonely and miserable too, but didn’t have the emotional words to describe that, like he’s never been, uh, able to communicate well. And so this is like part of the problem, right? And, um, not being able to communicate well meant that he didn’t have the words to describe how he felt or really to identify it. So, you know, we kinda came to this, okay. Like, we need other people in our lives because this living together works pretty well, but all the other stuff doesn’t work that great, you know? [00:17:00] So, um, and then I have another partner currently. Who is, um, also queer. And he actually all, all of my partners are, are queer men currently, but, um, so he, he’s, his main interest is in, in guys like sexually. But he’s a varsity cuddler and like, he just kinda wants to cuddle it. He really is like, like, like he just wants to like cuddle and brush my hair and he’s the best. And he’s, he’s super companionable and I spend a lot of my time with him and we do have a sexual relationship, but, um, I think we have more of an emotional relationship because we really need each other. And, um,

[00:17:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:17:44] that sound sweet.

[00:17:45] Xine Story: [00:17:45] and we have similar values, like we, you know, we like the same bands and you know, all that stuff. But

[00:17:53] then I have a, a third partner who I’m here with. And, uh, we actually used to have it, uh, [00:18:00] what I liked to lovingly refer to as our trupple, but it also could be called a tree, a triad.  we’re, we’re a duo now, but we used to have a tree, a tree OD with another lady, and, um, tht was really hot sexually for a long time. But, um, maybe not , the compatibility level of like worldviews wasn’t really there enough, I think, to keep things together longterm. Yeah. But I’m, in a lot of ways, it was a great experience. That was my first IX, not my first experience being in a relationship with a woman, but it was my first experience being in a triad, which, um, you know. I’m, I’m down with the sister wives, man. I’m like, especially if I can **** them, but

[00:18:45]Briana Cavanaugh: [00:18:45] yeah.

[00:18:46] Xine Story: [00:18:46] You know, so, um, yeah. So now we were just two, and he also has other partners, but he’s, um, more, I think, uh, like my sexual and intellectual partner than, than the [00:19:00] others necessarily. So, um, I have a patchwork quilt life, and in a lot of ways.

[00:19:09] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:19:09] It sounds very, it w the way that you’re describing it actually sounds very fulfilling. Like, like there’s a conversation I think around non-monogamy where people come to it because one of the big conversations is because, you know, no one person can meet

[00:19:24] all of her needs. And there’s the, um, one of the things is that, um, you know, we’ve put a lot on our. Well, our messy partner, whoever, however we talk about it, like whether you call it primary partner or nesting partner, like, like if you’re doing that, there’s a lot in that relationship, right? It requires a lot of attention and time and resources. And, um, and so there’s often a, like,  there’s a cultural idealizing of those relationships. And, um. And it’s [00:20:00] like, if you’re not doing that or if you’re doing something in addition to that, sometimes there’s a conversation,

[00:20:06] but like, it’s almost

[00:20:08] like, well, why aren’t you being able to get your needs from one person, but, that came up in my mind when you said the word patchwork, because it’s like, if it’s not, you’re not putting things together that are broken, for example, you’re weaving things together that like make your life beautiful and whole and happy.

[00:20:28] Xine Story: [00:20:28] Well, that’s a nice way to say

[00:20:31] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:20:31] I like that. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it sounds lovely.

[00:20:35] Xine Story: [00:20:35] I mean, I’m also lucky in the sense that like I never wanted children. I mean like from a young age, like I didn’t want children, and the older I got like the more. Like, I find it really hard just to take care of myself. Like I find it hard to get up everyday and do the things, you know, like, and like I have, yeah. I mean, I have a job, I support myself. Like I live in a, in a major city that’s really expensive and [00:21:00] you know, I go on vacations, but like I, I just barely do it. Like I’m, I’m like treading water all the time. And like I, I always felt like that in my life. So the fact that I never wanted kids kind of matched up with the fact that I never felt. Like emotionally, psychologically, or especially financially able to, to manage children. And you know, I know a lot of people wind up having children even though they also feel like that and they do it and they, a lot of them do kick ass jobs. And like, I just, I was lucky that I never had to do it and I never wanted to do it and I never had to do it. And so, like, essentially I live a life with very few. Responsibilities besides like taking care of myself, like, you know, managing to have an income enough to support myself and be like, you know, with the basic food and shelter and stuff. Like I don’t have screaming things that I have to come home to or, you know what I mean? Like I do, I one year old son.

[00:21:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:57] And recently not living with,

[00:21:59] Xine Story: [00:21:59] yeah.

[00:22:00] [00:21:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:21:59] And uh, yeah, it was, it was a lot for a long time.

[00:22:02] Xine Story: [00:22:02] It’s so much work. I mean, like, I just can’t even imagine, like I don’t understand how people can bring that energy out from them to, to create and raise and like cultivate another human being, you know? And. I mean like, yeah, I have lots of time to read like about fat theory and think about things and you know, have, have a patchwork of lovers, like, which takes up a lot of time, you know, because like they all live an hour or two in the other direction. Right. You know, so, I mean, I couldn’t do that if I had like, other external responsibilities. Like there is no way. So I understand. Like. How a lot of people wind up in situations where they have one partner and they really need that partner to be there. Everything, you know? Yeah.

[00:22:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:42] Especially if you’re raising kids.

[00:22:44] Xine Story: [00:22:44] I feel,

[00:22:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:22:45] I feel personally very lucky because I have a sweetheart who is not my son’s father, but who like, you know, I made it very clear that, you know, my son, I came as a set, even though I . 1819 [00:23:00] when, when we met. Um, but I was still like, you know, he still was living at home and it’s like, you know, we come as a set and then, and my sweetheart just, you know, shock just really has been fantastic and I think it wouldn’t, I think it wouldn’t work otherwise. Um, but it does require a lot. Like, he, you know, shock has taught my son how to drive and it’s very charming. Um. But it definitely takes deep commitment, um, and energy and time and resources and all kinds of stuff. And then when we decided that we wanted to live together. Um, my son, I moved, I moved out of the place where my son lived. And so, you know, even managing two households and teaching my son how to have a householder. So even though we’re not living together,

[00:23:44] it

[00:23:44] Xine Story: [00:23:44] is, it’s a lot. Anyway,

[00:23:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:23:46] I just want to acknowledge that you’re totally,

[00:23:47] Xine Story: [00:23:47] definitely right. Definitely the multiple households. I definitely understand that. I mean, cause yeah, like I spend, yeah. At least half the week someplace other than my actual [00:24:00] address, like my legal address. So it’s like always having to make a few days decisions ahead of time when you pack your little

[00:24:06] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:06] backpack, you know? Yeah, yeah. And when I, before that I was, I would stay with him on the weekends and then go home during the week. And it was, I don’t know about how it’s viewed, but it was so much. So like I’m packing, doing laundry, whatever, when I’m home and then I’m awake and when I’m awake. For a long time it felt very much like vacation and that was great, but then I have to still have to live my life and do my job and do,

[00:24:30] Xine Story: [00:24:30] yeah.

[00:24:32] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:24:32] I mean, I’m not lamenting any of it, but it is a, you know, a different way of living, I think. Then the idea that you get up, you have a. A husband or wife or whatever, and you, you know, this is all your, this is what you’re doing and you’re centered around one household and a small, you know.

[00:24:50] Xine Story: [00:24:50] Yeah. I’ve met actually here this week at a swingset desire. I’ve met a few different couples who are like in their retirement [00:25:00] and you know, their kids are finally grown. And it’s almost as if it’s like a new lease on life. Like they’re, you know, we met a lovely couple the other night that told us that they, you know. Like they, they shared that they’re living things that they wanted to do for 30 years, you know? And like, that’s amazing. It’s awesome. It’s inspiring, you know?

[00:25:20] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:20] But that you can’t, you know, when you have kids at home, there’s a lot of things that you absolutely cannot do. And for, I think a lot of people, and one of them is go on a sex vacation, right. With a hundred or 200 or however many you know of

[00:25:31] Xine Story: [00:25:31] your cousins friends, right? Yeah.

[00:25:33] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:33] It’s, it’s, it’s a lot. Made me very wistful. Mmm. So the other question I’ve been talking to people about is sex, having sex here

[00:25:48] Xine Story: [00:25:48] and the, yeah.

[00:25:50] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:25:50] And how, how is it like, are you having sex here? How’s it going? Like, what are you enjoying? Like tell us any exploits or adventures that you’ve, you’re having.

[00:25:59] Xine Story: [00:25:59] Um.

[00:26:00] [00:26:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:26:00] And if it’s working or not working, like if there’s drama, we’re happy to hear about that.

[00:26:04] Xine Story: [00:26:04] Yeah. It’s funny cause I met somebody when I first got here and I, I, they said. Re, uh, my, my partner said, you know, I’m a ****. And I said, Oh, I’m a **** too, but I’m a lazy **** and this person and I, I agreed with them and they said like, you know, women kind of have a privilege in the sense that they can be a lazy slug, whereas like, often, especially in heteronormal heteronormative context, like men really have to do the pursuing. And that really hit me because I mean, like, I feel like, yeah, like I, I’m not like, I’m shy. Like, I’m not. That greed at pursuing people. And it’s not like a lack of self confidence necessarily. Cause I don’t, you know, if somebody says, no, that’s all right, like, I don’t care. It’s fine. As long as they’re polite about it, you know? But it’s like, um, it’s just hard work and it’s like social skills that I haven’t developed yet, you know? And, um, I think that’s like it because of that. [00:27:00] I’ve historically just. Wound up in like male, female relationships because, because of our society, like it’s usually men who are put in the role of pursuers. And most men, even if they’re Henri in relationships, are always kind of on the take a little bit, you know? And so that’s who I meet and I, you know, it’s great. I loved all my partners. I’m so happy about that. But you know, I’m also like. Yeah, super attracted to women and like, I’m not as attracted to the male form to be honest. You know, like, I mean, I like men, but I got to get to know them and then I, you know, they kind of look better. Right. You know? Hey,

[00:27:39] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:39] yeah, absolutely. I was, this afternoon I interviewed, um, maybe, um,  was here with Tristan, with  and she was talking about, she’s like, she like, I’m, I’m a diet cause she’s

[00:27:51] Xine Story: [00:27:51] like, I’m fine.

[00:27:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:54] and was talking about how, you know, we were both talking about how we’re a little shy with

[00:27:58] Xine Story: [00:27:58] women

[00:27:59] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:27:59] and it’s like [00:28:00] it is, he’s like, it is easier to be with a man. Like jock found me. He came up to me, he asked me. Right. Um, and that makes it easier cause I feel like it is true often with women. It’s like, so we’re both like. You know, waiting and watching, and we want the signals to be really clear and, you know, and then by the time, by the time we can even figure out that what we want is for the signals to be really clear, some do to swept it. And it’s like,

[00:28:25] Xine Story: [00:28:25] Hey,

[00:28:26] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:28:26] nice boots. Right. And yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, exactly. Yeah.

[00:28:30] Xine Story: [00:28:30] Yeah. It always, you always wind up with like a lot of guys before and I, I get like, you know, I, I don’t think I’m, I have a super femme presentation, but I mean, like, I get. Pegged as, uh, a straight, you know, a lot. And so I think, I think those ladies who may pursue me or may maybe more apt to pursue me, probably don’t because they pegged me as straight, or they, peg isn’t the right word. Like, uh, [00:29:00] they get the impression, you know, and it’s like, you know, I mean, I. It’s a, but I know it’s another story. Stability, right?

[00:29:11] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:11] There’s, to some degree, it’s, it’s, cause if you show them that you’re more on the, the side, people are like, Oh, you’re clearly a Dyke. Right? Like, Oh, you like women. Right? Which might or might not be true. Um, but I think it’s really easy for, especially men to just read women who are even a little bit fun, you know, through high Femme to be straight. And, and,

[00:29:33] Xine Story: [00:29:33] or not care.

[00:29:34] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:29:34] Yeah. And so they’re just kind of on the table, right? Like, Oh yeah, those women are available to me. And they, and yeah. I think that’s part of an, like, kind of male entitlement. It’s like, Oh, those, those women are attracted to me. Um, which is its own, you know, it doesn’t feel to me like men. Are like women are, are attracted to me, [00:30:00] it doesn’t feel like a bad thing inherently, but I do wish that more women and other gendere people were like, yeah, those people, women, trans people, whatever, are attracted to me enough that they felt like they could risk because it was kind of within the balance of cultural acceptability, right? Like it’s okay for men to get rejected by women. It’s part of our cultural story, right? Is it okay for women to get rejected by women? We don’t have a strong cultural story about that, right? It’s like  the cultural narrative, it seems like. Um. And it’s more, okay. For Butch women to ask femme women, right? It’s the lesbian sheep. It’s like, you know, the men, the male sheep mountain, the female sheep, like you don’t know if, if there are female sheep because of lesbian sheep, because they’re not, they don’t display the same behaviors. So it’s hard to, harder to identify them. Anyway, I’m [00:31:00] just musing, thinking out loud about this. There was a girl, a woman’s only orgy that, um. That was here?

[00:31:11] Xine Story: [00:31:11] Yeah. Oh, I was in the first draft of that for the first night. It never really took off because, um, we got rained on. There are a few of us there, and we got rained on and so then it, you know, moved into, um. Some very nice peoples, uh, room.

[00:31:28] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:28] Oh, nice.

[00:31:28] Xine Story: [00:31:28] And they posted the room number on the chat, but, uh, probably, uh, like it was one of the first days here. And like, for example, I didn’t know that the chat was still going because like, I’ve been having wifi problems and there’s just been so much going on, you know, so maybe a lot of people I think would have been interested, but didn’t know that they were welcome to come to their room or the

[00:31:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:31:48] app on their phone. They’re not checking either on their phone with them, like, yeah. Yeah, it’s, there’s a logistic problem. I also think, um, the two things I feel like they’re not very [00:32:00] well attended. One is the women’s only orgy, and the other one is the, well, the one that they’re now calling the bis stravaganza but there tonight,

[00:32:07] yeah,

[00:32:07] that was originally, I thought it was aimed around supporting men being together.

[00:32:12] Xine Story: [00:32:12] Um, that’s what I thought too, man, on man play.

[00:32:16] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:32:16] Uh, but in the conversations I’ve been hearing on the resort, people are talking about, well, by stravaganza means everybody,

[00:32:22] right? There’s been a lot of confusion with, with nomenclature, like, especially like with the queer versus BI, because like there’s the purple beads for BI. And then there’s, there was originally like the rainbow color necklace and then some lovely person put the rainbow beads that were for queer and. Like we just put both, cause we didn’t, we didn’t want any confusion, you know? But it’s like, it’s like, Oh well if there’s somebody that’s signaling as queer but not as BI and they’re presenting as like gender normative, I think it is the way I’m going to say it. Like then what does that mean? How do I take that? Does, do I take that [00:33:00] as, yeah. Like it’s just, I think people, not everybody is taking like those terms in the same way,. Which is, yeah. Fine, but it’s, it’s creating confusion, right? Like, like for the, by extravaganza. Like I also thought it was for, you know, guys to get their bi on and get their queer on. And which is great because like, you know, queer BI queer guys like, have like their own set of problems, which are just, you know, yeah. And like a lot of ways, like they. Have problems, you know, that we don’t face because of the way that, um, like female, same sex sex is, is kind of, um, eroticized

[00:33:44] by men.

[00:33:45] Xine Story: [00:33:45] Right. So, so whereas like male, same sex, sex is, is, especially among non gay men, is seen as like a masculinity weakness almost. Yeah.

[00:33:58] You know.

[00:34:00] [00:34:00] That’s exactly right. Yeah.

[00:34:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:01] Yeah. Among the things that happens.

[00:34:03] Xine Story: [00:34:03] Yeah. So, and then, you know, like my partner that I’m here with pointed out, Oh, well it’s the bi extravaganza, so. I think that means that women are supposed to come too because like how could we be bi without the women there in some capacity? Like we were just, we’re just trying to like, cause I was like, okay, is that something that I should go do? Should I go as a, as a voyeur, should I, should I just kind of do my own thing and let you like, you know, I mean like we were just trying to figure it out and like, well we know like, wait, wait, he, I just want to help them get as queer on, you know, like, I mean,

[00:34:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:34:36] I had a whole thought process last night. Considering posting to the group chat and being like supportive, like specifically, you know, supportive of men and offering to like listen to them or help them or hold space so that they can do whatever they want to do. Cause

[00:34:51] there’s been a little

[00:34:52] bit of like, Oh well, you know, last year the BI, the men’s gathering was like two or three dudes [00:35:00] and

[00:35:00] that’s fine.

[00:35:01] But also if there’s, if we want to create more space for men. We have to figure out how we’re going to create more space for men and be explicitly like welcoming and, and including, um, or, or we decided you don’t need that space. Right? But if we’re queer centered, we, I think we do need that space. I do think we want that space and we would just have like, you know, continuing to have more conversations about, you know, I don’t know, maybe we just need to ask more people, Hey, are you,

[00:35:29] Xine Story: [00:35:29] yeah, I mean like, this is actually kind of almost case in point, but you know, we met this lovely couple and. The, the male counterpart of the couple was, you know, he, he likes the, you know, the, the men and the ladies, um, and he, and other genders. And he was saying that, you know, what? He’s come to desire and other swinger places be before when it wasn’t the queer takeover. And people have really like just taken one look at him and not wanting to [00:36:00] socialize with them because there’s, there’s so much homophobia. But since he’s been here, he felt that like, you know, he had a public scene with someone and he mentioned that after that, a lot of people had come up to him and said, Oh, we didn’t know. You know, we didn’t know you were queer. We thought you were straight. And he’s just like. Well, I have the purple bead, I have the rainbow necklace, I have the rainbow bead. My toenails are painted rainbow. My fingernails are painted. I’m wearing ladies’ flip flops. More do I have to do? It’s like, yeah, you’re

[00:36:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:36:35] not reading the signs.

[00:36:38] Xine Story: [00:36:38] So I also think there’s a lot of internal hobo.

[00:36:41] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:36:41] It’s like it’s internalized homophobia, right?

[00:36:43] Xine Story: [00:36:43] If your default

[00:36:45] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:36:45] assumption is that the people across from you are straight, right, that’s internalized homophobia.

[00:36:50] And, and I think that as a culture, we struggle with that,

[00:36:53] you know? And I think, I think there’s a lot of things that as a culture, we struggle with it and we pretend that it’s just us.

[00:37:00] [00:37:00] Xine Story: [00:37:00] Like,

[00:37:00] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:37:00] Oh, I didn’t know. But if the cultural assumption is those people are straight, that everybody is straight, right then just by

[00:37:09] assuming other people are straight,

[00:37:10] you’re, you have some internalized

[00:37:13] homophobia

[00:37:14] and, and it’s not personal to you. . Right? The reason that it’s happening to him is that everybody, right. All these people all over are all struggling with that and all pretending it’s them.

[00:37:26] Xine Story: [00:37:26] Right? Yeah. I mean, we keep income sensitive, like we can’t even get accurate numbers, like from the time that I was, you know, very young, like I heard that, I mean, there’s even a pansy division song that has a line about 10% you know, like, like 10% is supposed to be gay. Right? And so it’s like, okay, well, we know historically a lot of. Those, like supposedly gay people were not monosexual, you know, they were, they were bi in some pan in some way, right? Like they were somewhere on the spectrum that wasn’t [00:38:00] at one end or the other, but there wasn’t necessarily words or community for that. And so we still in 2019 like don’t have numbers, like what percentage of the population is not monosexual. Like we have no idea. You know? So maybe that, like looking at someone across the table and assuming that they’re heterosexual is maybe, you know, like aside from being internalized homophobia, maybe it’s also statistically not necessarily accurate. So there’s that.

[00:38:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:38:35] There’s a lot in there. Do you have any, any sexy stories that you want to tell them. Things that you’ve gotten up to this week.

[00:38:41] Xine Story: [00:38:41] Oh, it’s been amazing. I’ve just been able to like make out with so many lovely ladies and like, I never get to do that normally, you know? So, yeah. I mean, it’s been, it’s been so great and I, I’ve loved that everybody here is they from, from the second when we got here, you know, there was [00:39:00] Dylan and Cooper running around naked and they’re big guys, you know? I mean, and like, that’s awesome. Like that’s. That’s like an instantly welcoming sign to like anybody who’s, who’s, you know, a size that’s not normally welcomed and like, they’re really putting their money where their mouth is, you know? But I mean, it was just a

[00:39:21] Putting their mouths and a lot

[00:39:22] of places and we like that.

[00:39:26] Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s just been so great to see so many body types here. And I mean, like, I can’t, like there’s been. So many like rolls of fat everywhere that I’m just like, yeah, yeah. Like it’s so great to see it, you know? Cause you don’t normally see it. I mean,

[00:39:44] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:44] yeah, especially in things that are otherwise, I don’t know if I had a smear community,

[00:39:47] Xine Story: [00:39:47] that’s what I feel like.

[00:39:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:48] But, but in sex positive spaces in general, right. I, I, we live in the Bay area and there are multiple communities that I’ve been to where I’m like there are no other fat people here.

[00:39:57] Xine Story: [00:39:57] Yeah,

[00:39:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:39:58] that’s true. I

[00:39:59] Xine Story: [00:39:59] am [00:40:00] often the biggest person in the room and I’m, I don’t feel like, I’m not that big. Like compared to the, I’m about 250 pounds. I’m five four. So my size is anywhere from like, you know, 16 to 22 depending on like the clothing. Right.

[00:40:15] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:40:15] And that’s not that big, right. In terms of the size of humans.

[00:40:18] Xine Story: [00:40:18] Right. I mean, I’m not like, you know, like, like I have a lot of privileges even within the fat community. And still, I’m often the fattest person in the room. Right. You know, I’m, I, I’m, yeah. It’s just, even in the Bay area. I know. It’s no good. And it’s been amazing here because there’s so much nudity where like, you know, normally I go to kink events and just sex positive events and I, you know, like set or center for sex and culture just closed down or went online and it’s been like a tragedy in my life. But you know, like so many events that people are, are different sizes and different looks and are welcoming events, but [00:41:00] people are dressed and you know, to a certain degree they’re dressed. They’re dressed in the nice clothes cause they want people to like the way they look. In here. Like there’s so much nudity that you really see people’s bodies and you know, I mean the perfect body in a lot of ways is kind of a myth. I mean. Like there’s not many people that have that body. And I mean the, the, yeah. It’s a myth that it’s perfect. Right? But like, I mean, what the image of what that would be like, there’s not necessarily many people that have that. And even of those people like that actually doesn’t mean they hate themselves less than us, which is, is, you know, I think a sign of our culture because you can’t market products to people who don’t hate themselves.

[00:41:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:41:47] Right. That is also true.

[00:41:51] Xine Story: [00:41:51] For all of the money. A lot of it comes down to, unfortunately, we,

[00:41:56] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:41:56] so I know that we’ve been having a cupboard, or at least one conversation that I saw that I was a [00:42:00] part of where somebody wanted to come on this trip and they were like, Oh, but is it all skinny? It’s all skinny people. And I was the one who was like, no, there are other fat people you

[00:42:10] know. And, and I know for a fact that that Dylan Cooper intend to be fat, positive and fat welcoming. And it is different for men, right? Men who are fat it, there’s a different perception and they’re less, in some ways, less vulnerable than women who are

[00:42:27] Xine Story: [00:42:27] fat. Because there’s all of this pressure

[00:42:29] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:29] there. It’s not, not at all. Right? They still have body stuff. They’re still

[00:42:32] Xine Story: [00:42:32] like, you know,

[00:42:33] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:33] but there’s definitely more pressure, especially in sexualized spaces. Because women,

[00:42:39] Xine Story: [00:42:39] especially in

[00:42:39] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:39] swinger culture cause women are like the center

[00:42:42] Xine Story: [00:42:42] or

[00:42:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:42] like the cookies, the prizes like right. You get to,

[00:42:44] Xine Story: [00:42:44] to have sex with the occurrence.

[00:42:46] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:46] Yeah. That’s exactly what their currency, it’s a lot.

[00:42:50] Xine Story: [00:42:50] It’s a lot to thing about. Yeah.

[00:42:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:54] So I think we should, um,

[00:42:56] Xine Story: [00:42:56] wrap up a bit.

[00:42:57] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:42:57] Uh, is there one last thing [00:43:00] that you want to say or one experience you want to share that you haven’t yet gotten to share.

[00:43:03]Xine Story: [00:43:03] well,

[00:43:07] there’s something that I want to say and, um, I’m hesitant to say it because like, I don’t want to be taken wrong, right? But.

[00:43:23] Mmm. I think that as humans, we all have a lot of self hate of our bodies. Like no matter what we look like, right. And, um, I am so grateful to like fat positivity. Like I find fat people hot. I find skinny people hot. I find all the people hot, you know? Um. And I wouldn’t be here without like, fat, positivity, culture and those things. I mean, I wouldn’t like, I would have be like in a crumpled heap somewhere destroyed. Right. But also, [00:44:00] I don’t think that, yeah, I don’t think you have to love your body that like, have hot sex or to like walk around naked, you know? And like, I, um,

[00:44:12] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:44:12] I think that’s a great point.

[00:44:13] Xine Story: [00:44:13] When I was like 18, I somehow fell in with these new people in Berkeley who like walked around Berkeley naked. And, um, I got in as like a political act because I felt at the time that like, you know, the naked body is something that we all have and like, it shouldn’t be illegal. Um, I don’t know if I necessarily feel as militant about that at this point in my life, but, um, and the people, it turned out that were in that group. Their motive wasn’t necessarily political, but, um, through that experience, like, and it was really hard for me to like take off my clothes and walk around a town. And especially because like, people were pissed. They’re like, I don’t want my kids to see you. You know, I don’t want my kids to see nudity`. And, um, [00:45:00] I think like, I hated my body and I was, I was like more like, there was a span of years where I lost some weight and I was like, you know. Like, like, just through like, being poor and not having money for food, but like, you know, I, I, um, was and young, you know, like there’s the privilege of youth. Like I was 18, like, and I was conventionally had, I had more like, social currency, you know, than I might now. But like, I hated myself a lot more. Like, I had a lot more like, self-confidence problems.

[00:45:31] We’re

[00:45:32] being invaded. You probably should put the thing on the door.

[00:45:36] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:36] Yeah. Maybe they bring us chocolate.

[00:45:43] Xine Story: [00:45:43] I want them. Yeah. Chocolate they are

[00:45:49] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:49] bringing is chocolate.

[00:45:51] Xine Story: [00:45:51] Wow. That’s so good. Does that just happen?

[00:45:54] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:45:54] That just happened. We just manifested some chocolate.

[00:45:57] Xine Story: [00:45:57] Oh my gosh. [00:46:00] See? Love your body. Get chocolate. That’s right. Palovian  justice or you’re leaving tomorrow. All that. Saturday

[00:46:11] thank you. Thank you. What did I, one luck.

[00:46:14] No, I think we’re good. No, no, no, I’m good. Yeah. Don’t cause

[00:46:19] poor editor.

[00:46:22] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:22] I, I think this is actually one of the best parts of the trip is that, um, sometimes they come by in the evenings and they bring you chocolate and booze

[00:46:32] Xine Story: [00:46:32] and this isn’t just Hershey’s talk like this is like, Oh

[00:46:35] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:35] hand man.

[00:46:36] Xine Story: [00:46:36] Hey, his handmade truffle. It’s like gold leaf on them. Yeah,

[00:46:42] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:42] yeah. Oh yeah. These are amazing.

[00:46:45] Xine Story: [00:46:45] And

[00:46:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:47] yeah, it’s one of my favorite parts actually, is that in the evening we often come back, like come back from dinner or

[00:46:52] come back

[00:46:53] from the pool and they have remade our bed

[00:46:56] Xine Story: [00:46:56] fill up our towels again

[00:46:58] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:46:58] and left us chocolate and booze.

[00:47:00] [00:47:00] Xine Story: [00:47:00] Wow.

[00:47:01] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:47:01] Anyway, so one of the joys of being able to come on sex vacation is for sure. I can’t remember. We’re talking about, because now I have chocolate.

[00:47:11] Xine Story: [00:47:11] No. So anyway, like, you know, I was 18 I just moved to California from Florida. Like I had a background in like radical thinking, but like I still had self confidence issues. I still hated myself. So w it wasn’t easy to like take off my clothes and walk around naked in front of a whole bunch of people,

[00:47:28] most of whom were kind of jeering. Right. You know? And the ones who were engineering, you know, there was half of them was like, you know, what you guys are doing is cool? And half of them are like, Ooh, Hey Baby, can I feel your tip and take a picture with you? Right. You know? So, um, but we had all sizes there and all types of people. I mean, it was like, we had also like, you know, people who had mobility issues and like had disabilities that, you know, are not normally seen. We’re very rarely seen by the [00:48:00] general public naked. You know? So I think it made it even more kind of an edgy thing. Right. Um,

[00:48:08] so.

[00:48:10] Uh, what I wanted to say is that like, you know, it wasn’t easy to do that. And I learned some skills when I was doing it. And, you know, it’s just

[00:48:18] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:48:18] like

[00:48:18] Xine Story: [00:48:18] what

[00:48:19] it’s just the simplest thing. Like, just don’t look down. You know, if he, if he, if you hate your body, like, don’t look at it, look forward and keep going and like, **** that thing whenever you’re ****ing ****ing, you know. And it’s like, that helped me with sex. I mean, like, and it seems like, like, I don’t, I, I really hesitate to say this because I don’t want to come off as not seeming body positive or not seeming like, I think larger bodies are beautiful and sexy because I absolutely do think that larger bodies are beautiful and sexy. But I don’t, I don’t think that everybody’s necessarily there at a self confidence point. And it’s kind of like if somebody has an illness and. You know, like, you want them to say, well, be positive positivity, [00:49:00] that’ll help, that’ll help you. You know, you can’t overcome this without a positive attitude. And it’s like, that’s great for some people. And other people are like me. They’re kind of like Eyeore, you know, like, like I, I’m. I, yeah, I’m not that positive of a person early, you know? And like  people have reported that it’s felt like being like doubly victimized, you know? Because not only are they struck by chance, you know that they have a horrible illness, but also then it’s almost put on them like it’s their fault because they’re not positive enough.  and, and, you know, it’s like, you don’t, you don’t have to be there. Like, you don’t have to be 100% love your body to, to use it in a way that’s pleasurable. And like, I’ve had people tell me and of all different sizes and types, and like, you know, like even like people who are, you know, you’d see in a magazine, like they tell me that they like, like I’ve had women tell me that they don’t find sex pleasurable, even like with their husbands because they’re not happy with their bodies. And it’s like. Don’t look, look in his eyes, [00:50:00] you know, look at, look at something else. Like, don’t think about, I think about how it feels like when your ***** is getting pounded, you know, think about the sensations and you know, like maybe you’ll get there. That’s the, that’s the goal is to love your body, but like you could still have fun while you’re on the journey. Right.

[00:50:15] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:50:15] It’s not a requirement, but I hear that that messages don’t wait. Like you don’t have to wait until you’re like, I am confident now. I can do a thing. You don’t have to wait. You can just have pleasure now.

[00:50:24] Xine Story: [00:50:24] Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like get naked because why not? Like, you’re going to die soon anyway, and we’re all going to rotten the grave. I mean, like all our bodies are gonna rot the same way and no one’s going to be beautiful in their coffin. It really doesn’t matter in the end of the day. Yeah. And bodies are for living in chocolate

[00:50:45] on my body and for eating chocolate.

[00:50:47] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:50:47] That’s right.

[00:50:48] It’s so good. I mean, I know that like, I know that we are on the kind of radical edge of sex positivity coming to, you know, um, clothing optional, [00:51:00] mostly naked, you know, sexy resort, but that most of the time is a swinger resort, which is edgy, but we’re even to the left of that with, you know, all the queer people on the kinky people and all the poly people all spending time together. This is a very radical environment, and not everybody loves their lows, their body, you know, and it’s not required for pleasure. Yeah. I think you’re 100% right.

[00:51:25] Xine Story: [00:51:25] Yeah. And we, I mean, even just on this trip, we’ve met so many people that have express displeasure at their bodies. And it’s like, Oh my, I mean, it’s not even like size issues, but like, Oh, like. You know, I used to look like this and now I look like this because of time. Or I used to look like this, but, and then I had these surgeries and now I look like this. Or Oh, this part of my body never grew the way I wanted it to grow, or,

[00:51:48] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:51:48] you know what I mean? He is injured and I can’t

[00:51:51] walk like I used to. Oh yeah. I mean, when you go up the stairs, yeah.

[00:51:55] Xine Story: [00:51:55] There’s a lot of stairs here. Absolutely. Yeah. Like my, my partner them with [00:52:00] this has like a knee problem and it’s like, we have to always take the other stairs to the dungeon and like, you know, we’re in the, in the. You know, there’s a lot of people that, um, yeah, all my friends

[00:52:12] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:52:12] talk to you. I was in a conversation earlier with Cooper and one of the people who are working on theirs, they’re doing a much a construction here

[00:52:18] and they’re going to

[00:52:19] do, um, a jacuzzi on the ground floor, um, with another playroom. And I dunno when all that is gonna be opening. And I don’t know if that’s up for public consumption up there, but that’s just what we were talking about. Cause I said to him, um, I was over hearing in this conversation and I just was like. Hey are you, I just butted in because this is important. This is my third year here. We spend

[00:52:39] quite a lot of money

[00:52:40] to be here. And I was like, are you going to put in an elevator to the hot tub? And he was like, as a matter of fact, and he started talking about his plans because it’s, you know, this year I was injured before coming here. So I’m, I was in a lot of pain and then I got here and got my pain medication. That’s been

[00:52:58] much better. And we got, I got [00:53:00] shocked. My sweetheart got me a scooter, which has been amazing. But climbing the sets of stairs to go up to where the hot tub is, um, makes me nervous. Like I haven’t actually got up there. We’ll go up there tonight for the first time all week. And usually that’s my place.

[00:53:12] Xine Story: [00:53:12] They’re steep and slippery.

[00:53:15] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:15] Yeah. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a big deal. So accessibility and ability and size. It’s all, it’s all at play. Yeah. But don’t wait. Have pleasure now. I think that’s our.

[00:53:27] Xine Story: [00:53:27] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Good.

[00:53:29] Briana Cavanaugh: [00:53:29] Good motto. All right, so we’re going to wrap up. When, what, how can people find you?

[00:53:36] So I don’t have any things that I do really, like, I’m just, you know, takes me, it takes a lot out of me just living my life. But, um, I have an Instagram account and so. I would love to make new friends. And it’s a pretty memorable name. It’s @rainydayMondays,  which is a Ccarpenter’s reference. So, um, please come find me people. Yeah. So we’ll put a link [00:54:00] @rainydayMondays, Mondays, in the show notes, and you’ll be able to find Christine.

[00:54:04] Xine Story: [00:54:04] Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for being with us today. Thank you. Right. Bye everyone!

[00:55:00] [00:54:10]



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